quote:Dick, the aluminum block 4 cyl from the Vega didn't morph into the Iron Duke. The only thing those two engines had in common was the number of cylinders. The Iron Duke dates back to the 60s. I had a friend in high school who drove a white Chevy II that had that engine in it. The concept of of a high silicon aluminum blocks without cylinder liners is viable if it's done correctly. Porsche's first V8 (introduced in the 928) used this technology, as did Mercedes-Benz's second generation V8 engines. I've personally seen a MB 5.0 liter engine with over 300,000 miles on it that was still running great. For those that don't know how you can run an aluminum block without iron cylinder liners, the technique involves infusing the aluminum with a very high amount silicon. The cylinders are precisely cast and then honed and the final step involves an etching process where the top few microns of aluminum are removed from the cylinder walls leaving nothing but the very hard silicon for the rings and pistons to run on.
Originally posted by dickwells: Gentlemen, I must point out the famous (infamous) Vega 4cyl engine with the high silicate block which was specially treated to have the rings run on its surface. It sure was a big success!but was morphed into the pontiac Iron Duke which did pretty well (it was the front 4 cylinders of a chevy 6) I worked in a plant that made millions of phenolic timing gears for these until the roller cam/high spring tension made them obsolete.
Castrol SLX 0W-30, 6,400 miles, 2001 Toyota Corolla
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G-man.......isn't that similar to hypereutectic pistons?
I am doubtful a modern toyota engine uses iron sleeves. Both my toyotas dont.
The Castrol SLX that's available here is all old stocks SJ. It is ACEA A1 but label behind says it also meets ACEA A3.
I spoke to a castrol rep in singapore recently and he mentioned Castrol RS 10w50, Castrol Syntron 5w50, BP Visco 7000 0w40 were all from the same blending plant in malaysia. He was not sure where SLX was from, possibly germany. He told me to sit tight and the SL formulation of the SLX will be coming soon.
es, did you add any additives to your engine? Im quite ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
castrol uses moly in their oils.
Im also quite it thinned out to a 10.4, assuming it started out as a 12.1. Fuel dilution?
castrol uses moly in their oils.
Im also quite it thinned out to a 10.4, assuming it started out as a 12.1. Fuel dilution?quote:Yep, 6,400 miles(~10,000km)
Originally posted by Bror Jace: es, it never hurts to take a second look at your air filtration but every value is single digits except Al (at a mere 11) despite 6,400 miles (not kilometers, correct?) on the oil. That's really good! Lead of "1" with a 30 weight oil after all that time?![[Duh!]](/forums/graemlins/pat.gif)
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
quote:Yes, aluminium block with iron liners. The lab also suspected seals or gasket. I guess the next UOA (with OEM air filter) will might give a better view.
Originally posted by Bror Jace: You might want to find out if your motor has iron/steel cylinder liners. I assume it has. Other than the rest of the internally exposed block, crankcase and possible dirt contamination (different types of dirt around the world should show different ratios of Al, Si and other elements), I can't think of another source except silicone engine gaskets. I think it was Spector who pointed out that some Toyota engines show elevated Si levels from their gaskets for quite a long time ... even 2+ years and some tens of thousands of miles.![[I dont know]](/forums/graemlins/dunno.gif)
Hi Everyone,
my 1.6l Corolla is using a 3zz-fe engine, in the same family as the 1zz-fe used in the Celica SS1 (I think it's called the GT in the US). It's got an aluminum block & head with cast iron liners. I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure the camshafts don't use bearing inserts.
Just a side note : The Celica SS2 (GT-S) uses a 2zz-ge engine that has a linerless MMC (metal matrix composite) aluminum block. The aluminum alloy cylinder bore is reinforced with ceramic fibers and particles.
quote:Exactly. I wonder what "also meets ACEA A3" means - some more Castrol marketing-speak?
Originally posted by Ken4: The Castrol SLX that's available here is all old stocks SJ. It is ACEA A1 but label behind says it also meets ACEA A3.
quote:I didn't add any additives. This is my 4th (10,000km interval) oil change with SLX. I'm not sure what viscosity it started out at, but petrol at 0.8% isn't high, is it? [ October 25, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: es ]
Originally posted by Ken4: es, did you add any additives to your engine? Im quite
quote:Pat, Thanks for noticing. I'm still around...have been keeping a low profile, in part, as a result of the increased "bash Castrol" activity...frankly, got disgusted with it. In reference to your comments, while I will drive across town for GC, Singapore is a little far.
Originally posted by Patman:quote:Wait until Pscholte hears about this oil!
Originally posted by Pablo: Gotta chase me down some Singapore Castrol 0W30! SC?
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon}
I get about 3 miles off the coast of California (at a depth of about 1500 feet) and both my car and I find breathing difficult. These ARE very nice numbers....now, if they would just make it the color of, say, Key Lime pie! quote:I pretty sure most of their aluminum blocks are still using iron liners (2ZZ-GE exception noted previously), including the 2AZ-FE.
Originally posted by Ken4: I am doubtful a modern toyota engine uses iron sleeves. Both my toyotas dont.
quote:Yes, I think even the Lexus V8s use liners. And on their newest V6, V8 and V12 engines, even MB has gone back to liners.
Originally posted by es: I pretty sure most of their aluminum blocks are still using iron liners (2ZZ-GE exception noted previously), including the 2AZ-FE.
Posted by G-Man,
quote:If this was true, then, it still wouldn't be 100% AL.....the Si coating would save the Al's skin......I've never heard of a 100% Al liner....I find it hard to believe Al by itself could take the abuse....especially if you had a GM slapper. Moreover, what would you do when it came time to rebuild the engine.....if you bore the cylinders, there goes the Si coatin/infusion! I know there are Al connecting rods run in all top fuel engines and many street engine (although they last for about 100k miles), but the stresses are way different. Besides the point, what would be the advantages to a set up like that? Weight savings? It surely would cost more without any rewards....at least that I can think of. Now, I would think Titanium would be a good candidate....lighter and stronger than steel and iron.....I wonder if it has been done. Rick [ October 25, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
For those that don't know how you can run an aluminum block without iron cylinder liners, the technique involves infusing the aluminum with a very high amount silicon. The cylinders are precisely cast and then honed and the final step involves an etching process where the top few microns of aluminum are removed from the cylinder walls leaving nothing but the very hard silicon for the rings and pistons to run on.
Formula SLX rated ACEA A1/B1 ? Incredible. Looks like pure marketing. Think it could be one of renamed or reformulated BP Visco 7000 0W-30.
Hi,
G-Mann II - you are correct, both MB and Porsche use the "Alusil" blocks and heads you mention. Many are now out up to 500000 miles without any drama. Any major problems have been caused by incorrect cooling system maintenance. Most have never been overhauled in any major way. Two Companies in the USA can either re-machine the bores or insert a thin wall liners if needed
A number of Companies in Germany have these reconditioning processes in place too
Advantages are the manufacturing process, better heat transfer and quite amazing durability and some others as well. Some weight advantage of course occur
A special process is needed to hone/finish the bores in order to get the correct level of silicon "projection"
Kolbenschmidt-Pierburg AG were/are the makers and other vehicle manufacturers use variances to this "Alusil" concept
Last_Z - Exotic metal(s)like Titanium will probably never be used extensively in volumn production vehicles. Titanium conrods are common in race engines especially with Porsche
and other "ceramics" are another thing!
Many special metals and compounds have been used in racing cars over the years by the Germans Especially in the lead up to WW2
A tour through the Daimler Benz Museum in Stuttgart will amaze you
If you check the UOAs ( 4 ) on this Board from my 928 you will note that both the Si and Al readings are very low
Regards
Doug
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 ( alloy )
MY89 Porsche 928S4 ( Alusil V8 )
MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 ( alloy )
Hi,
Primus - I agree with you. It looks like the Castrol/BP combine is in to many "Marketing" moves
They have lost much respect here
Regards
quote:John Browning mentioned the 2AZ-FE uses an aluminium block with resin coated pistons. When I looked thru my haynes manual, no where could I find the use of liners in the 5S-FE either.
Originally posted by es: I pretty sure most of their aluminum blocks are still using iron liners (2ZZ-GE exception noted previously), including the 2AZ-FE.
quote:Unless specially treated, most aluminum blocks need some form of liner. If it's not mentioned, the norm will be some iron or steel liner. I think the 5S-FE uses a cast iron block, so no need for liners.
Originally posted by Ken4:quote:John Browning mentioned the 2AZ-FE uses an aluminium block with resin coated pistons. When I looked thru my haynes manual, no where could I find the use of liners in the 5S-FE either.
Originally posted by es: I pretty sure most of their aluminum blocks are still using iron liners (2ZZ-GE exception noted previously), including the 2AZ-FE.
Doug H.,
The Acura NSX, are you familiar with it?.... has a lot of parts built out of titanium to include Con. Rods and valves and I think more, but can remember now, one of the reason it cost $80k. Interesting stuff about the Al/Si cylinders.
Rick
quote:After reboring, you gotta put in iron liners
Originally posted by Last_Z: Moreover, what would you do when it came time to rebuild the engine.....if you bore the cylinders, there goes the Si coatin/infusion!
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}
quote:Lighter con-rods would mean less reciprocating mass - a big deal in engine design.
Originally posted by Last_Z: I know there are Al connecting rods run in all top fuel engines and many street engine (although they last for about 100k miles), but the stresses are way different. Besides the point, what would be the advantages to a set up like that? Weight savings? It surely would cost more without any rewards....at least that I can think of.
quote:I kinda figured about the re-sleeved cylinders, but what is the advantage of having Al cylinders over iron lined cylinders? I also knew the conn. rods....I was referring to the cylinders in this quote. Speaking of lighter weight/mass and faster engine spool up, there are also light weight valves made of titanium with hollowed out stems, short skirt pistons, hollowed out camshaft (LS1 engines is a good example), lightweight cranks.....etc, etc. Rick [ October 25, 2003, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
Originally posted by es:quote:After reboring, you gotta put in iron liners
Originally posted by Last_Z: Moreover, what would you do when it came time to rebuild the engine.....if you bore the cylinders, there goes the Si coatin/infusion!quote:Lighter con-rods would mean less reciprocating mass - a big deal in engine design.
Originally posted by Last_Z: I know there are Al connecting rods run in all top fuel engines and many street engine (although they last for about 100k miles), but the stresses are way different. Besides the point, what would be the advantages to a set up like that? Weight savings? It surely would cost more without any rewards....at least that I can think of.
quote:The technique isn't a silicon "coating." The entire block is cast in high silicon content aluminum and the cylinder bores are etched to remove the top few microns of aluminium in the bores. This leaves nothing but the silicon for the pistons to run on. These hi silicon blocks are supposedly stronger and lighter than an equivalent iron block. (The aluminum block in my Chrysler V6 is supposedly this same hi silicon aluminum--for strength only, since Chrysler chose to use iron sleeves.) The advantage to a sleeveless design is less weight, and NO chance of a sleeve leaking at the block-head interface, and NO chance of sleeve failure due to the inherent difference in the expansion rate of aluminum and iron.
Originally posted by Last_Z: If this was true, then, it still wouldn't be 100% AL.....the Si coating would save the Al's skin......I've never heard of a 100% Al liner....I find it hard to believe Al by itself could take the abuse....especially if you had a GM slapper.
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