Car battery question

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Originally Posted By: bbhero
Exactly. The aftermarket offerings almost ALWAYS have a higher CCA. Talk about outrageously high CCA... X2 battery made by Northstar for Batteries Plus has almost 1000 CCA !! It weighs 57 pounds vs 42 pounds for mine, has a five year free replacement warranty on it to boot.

My understanding is that a similar size but with beefier plates is more likely to last longer, especially if it's hot. I guess CCA is a number that looks like it's important, but may mean compromises.

Warranties may not even have anything to do with actual longevity. They're often just marketing tools.
 
Well Northstar makes some very, very good deep cycle batteries. That would likely be the reason why the warranty is as long as they make it. Real high quality batteries made with virgin lead.
 
I think you will get excellent service from that Deka battery!
East Penn makes some fantastic batteries, I was thrilled when my local Auto Value store dumped Exide and started selling Deka, and for a pretty reasonable price.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: bbhero
Exactly. The aftermarket offerings almost ALWAYS have a higher CCA. Talk about outrageously high CCA... X2 battery made by Northstar for Batteries Plus has almost 1000 CCA !! It weighs 57 pounds vs 42 pounds for mine, has a five year free replacement warranty on it to boot.

My understanding is that a similar size but with beefier plates is more likely to last longer, especially if it's hot. I guess CCA is a number that looks like it's important, but may mean compromises.

Warranties may not even have anything to do with actual longevity. They're often just marketing tools.


Higher CCA does not mean its a better battery. Y_P_W had it right when he noted it may 'mean comprises' somewhere else. Focusing solely on CCA means you are trying to lower internal resistance. To do this you need to reduce active material and thin out the plates. This can make the plates more brittle and will reduce the AH and RC as well as lower the batteries weight (which someone touched on earlier in this thread). If a battery can boast the highest specs or at least be in the top tier for CCA, AH, RC and weight then you know you have a true dual purpose workhorse of a battery that will stand the test of time.

Starting batteries have great crank but they suck for any long-term draw (i.e leaving your lights on)
Deep cycle batteries are great for long drain applications but will not have the highest crank (but generally because of there size they have pretty good crank too)
Dual Purpose batteries will by near or at the top in crank and deep cycle abilities.

So the question is do you need a pure lead dual purpose battery in your vehicle? Personally, I tend to think yes, especially if you and your family keep accessories plugged into the DC sockets. I have run a NorthStar in my vehicle (Suburban) for the last 4 years and it runs as good now as it did when first installed. When our speedometer went out we left our GPS plugged in 100% of the time and even after not going anywhere for a few days with the rig in the garage the battery never even hesitated. You guys all know those GPS units drain batteries fast when searching for a satellite! During that same period of time my kids had their kindles and iPad plugged in from the back outlet. The previous battery would have been near dead.

I like NorthStar very much. Probably makes for the lowest cost of ownership profile in relation to peers. I like Odyssey their just a little more pricey for the same result. And I like East Penn [DEKA] as a solid battery with a lower entry cost.
 
Well here's something to think about .... The X2 battery by Northstar weighs 57 pounds. My battery weighs 42 pounds. EXACT Same size battery. More plates or much thicker in the X2 made by Northstar???? I would say yes. No compromise there. CCA 1000 plus.. No loss in Performance. But yes, CCA is only one aspect to look at. Amp hours and reserve capacity are very important as well. In fact more important.
 
Actually in this scenario they use virgin lead and thinner plates that are highly compressed to fit into the re-enforced battery case (if it wasn't re-enforced the components would bust out of the case). By doing this they are able to add more active material which increases AH, weight and RC while keeping internal resistance down which maintains the high CCA ratings.

If you ever get a chance to visit their factory, jump on the opportunity. They are on top of their game to the point that you could literally eat off their floors! It is that clean.
 
I have a 38 month old group 27 Northstar battery with ~ 470 deep cycles on it.


Its performance is still impressive, but I recharge it properly and fully often with adjustable voltage sources.

Note that when deeply cycled, these (and Odyssey) should be high amp recharged.

My 90Ah group 27, at 38 months old and depleted to aboot 30% state of charge, can accept 65 amps for nearly 25 minutes before voltage rises to 14.7v.

When it was new it would accept 65 amps for longer before voltage rose to 14.7v.

Its engine cranking ability when new was mind bogglingly fast. Now it is less so but still better faster than any flooded battery I have owned.

Proper recharging is Key. this plays a Huge part in battery longevity, and in a vehicle how well it is recharged is dictated by the voltage regulator, and the time it is allowed to hold that voltage.

As while one can deplete a fully chrged battery to 80% in 20 minutes, one cannot recharge itback to 100% in less than 3 hours no matter how powerful the charging source. and thpose 3 hours assume Ideal absorption voltages.
And yes this includes recently polished chromed alternators.
 
Yeah that makes sense about the virgin lead plates. I gave the option of more or thicker plates in my response earlier. Evidently it wasore as you stated. Good to learn. I would like to go to Northstar's factory and East Penn as well. To see very good products like these made here in the US of A
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You are the only person on here who I went back and read through many of their posts. Your posts are that impressive. Simply best of the best when it comes to battery information. So I took a number of hours to cull through and read many of your posts to learn more about car batteries, how to charge them properly, and about how to properly take care of a REAL deep cycle battery. You sir... Are a tremendous HP to everyone on here who wants to learn about batteries. And I sincerely thank you for all of your great information and education.
 
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Well, thanks for the shout out.

I don't like being wasteful, and got sick of destroying batteries long ago, and eventually found most conventional wisdom regarding lead acid batteries and their proper care and recharging was misguided at best.

Regarding deep cycle/ marine/ and starting, well, they all want to be recharged to a true full state of charge, ASAP, from any level of discharge, minor or deep.

The charging sources to achieve this and the tools to verify it, is where the experience is learned and a battery can live to its potential, as long as it does not bake in extreme heat 50% of the time.
 
Well man I am just calling it the way I see it. You really do a great job explaining how to take care of batteries in the best ways.

I do have a question about something.. To get the most out of a East Penn Deka car battery group 24 would it be a good idea to charge it every month with a 3 stage charger?? I do take long drives rather often meaning like every week. Like today I drove for about 4.5 hours total. 3 hrs straight and then 1.5 after that. My battery is obviously in the engine compartment. It is only 1 month old and has a 12.7 charge on it at 73°F the other week. So given everything would I need to get a 3 stage charger or just not have to do that?? I wouldn't mind getting the charger if it meant I could really get a lot more good use of my battery past the 2 yr warranty period.
 
The Battery POlygraph is the hydrometer.

51Q34AW3f9L._SL1500_.jpg


Do not rely on voltage, and is only accurate as a state of charge refenence on a battery shich has not seen chargeing or discharging currents for many many hours, and onlyu then when has a basis for comparision on that specific battery.

Often here one will read how 12.7v means a fully charged healthy battery when it simply does not, not unless the battery has not been charged for 24 hours, and one has previously fully charged the battery and let it rest for a week and then found it at 12.70 volts.

My Northstar AGM rests at 13.06v fully charged, so a 12.7v = 100% charged declaration, is so far off and simply wrong it is nearly criminal.

How well your vehicle charges your battery is determined by the voltage the vehicle's voltage regulator allows, for the time it allows.

The Hydrometer can;t lie, unless bubbles are sticking to the float, ot the electrolyte is significantly hotter or colder than 77F. The OTC4619 hydrometer has a thermometer which says to subtract or Add 0.00X to the reading on the float.

It is not the most accurate hydrometer available, that honor likely belongs to francis freas glass works, but it is precise and can be compared to future readings, as long as one makes sure no bubbles stick to the float ands adds or subtracts for temperature.

As far as how beneficial it would be for you to apply a smart charger monthly to the battery, impossible to say not knowing how well your vehicle's voltage regulator takes care of the battery in your usage patterns. If you do listen to radio with engine off, or charge your phone with engine off, then more often applications of a smart charger would be more beneficial to it.

But unless y0our vehicles voltage regulator does a very good job, the battery will benefit from a full charge from a good charger. Most VRs are timid, aiming to not overcharge the battery, they are not much concerned with achieving a true full chrge ASAP which is a bit of a middle finger to the battery itself.

And while most automatic smart chargers will drop from absorption voltage before the battery is fully charged, they usually drop to float voltage(13.2v to 13.4v for flooded batteries), and if left at float voltage for 12 more hours it likely will be fully charged, or very nearly so. Double check with the hydrometer. on flooded batteries. On AGM full charge is determined by an ammeter. When the battery can accept only 0.5% of its capacity(20 hour rate) At absorption voltage, then it can be considered fully charged. Easy when one can control voltage and read an Ammeter, much harder when the charger drops out of absorption voltage to float voltage before one was able to take a reading.



Or of time is an issue, one could use the AGM setting as they float at 13.6 to 13.8v, which will charge faster than 13.2v. Just do not leave on for a week floating on the AGM setting.

I prefer the AGM setting on my 10+ yer old smart schumacher for my flooded batteries, as it will actually hold 14.7v longer, and will not usually exceed 15v, as it will on the flooded settings

Or one can trick and restart the charger to squeeze in those last few percent. Turn on the lights/ high beams, blower motor on high, rear defroster until battery voltage falls to ~12.6v then restart charger, then remove loads.

How any individual charger responds to this trickery is variable, but the goal it to get it to seek 14.5+/- volts and hold it for a period of time until the hydrometer reads 1.275+, or whatever one has already established as the maximum specific gravity reading on that particulr battery when it was brand spanking new and fully charged.

But in general 1.275+ is fully charged, but a battery designed for the far north, the concentration 'might' be as high a 1.310, and in the tropics 'might' be as low as 1.260. So established baselines are needed before declaring a specific gravity reading of 1.2XX= 100% state of charge.

On an older battery when one has nothing to compare current readings to, a controlled overcharge can be used to establish how high the specific gravity readings can go, but this might require voltages as high as 16.2v which is well outside the capabilities of most chargers, and the process must be monitored closely for excessive battery heating and terminated as soon as the specific gravity, compensated for the electrolytes rising temperature, stops rising.

Each of the 6 cells can vary slightly too, but usually one always reads low. To save time in future one can just dip this low cell.

Always rinse and dry the hydrometer afterwards, and save the packaging it came in for storage.

The true battery maintenance nut job can make charts recording specific gravity, electrolyte level in each cell and battery temperature, voltage of the battery, how long the charger was applied before specific gravity was maxed out, what type of service the battery has seen.

No one needs to do this, but the maintenance minded bitoger trying to get the most from their battery, like they do from their motor oil, well it is not that crazy, and a hydrometer is a one time cost of 11 dollars, not the 35$ each used oil analysis costs
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I do not have any smart charger recommendations. I have grown frustrated with their marketing and Lying green lights. I use an adjustable voltage power supply and I hold a temperature compensated absorption voltage until the hydrometer or Ammeter tells me the battery is full. This time varies greatly in my usage, and very few automatic chargers would get it right, and close but no cigar is not good enough, for my intentions.
 
Ohh I remember reading your post about how 12.7 volts on your battery would mean it's no bueno
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Because 13.06 was where it should be due to what type of battery it is. Yeah I NEVER listen to my radio with the car off and never charge my phone with it off either. My East Penn Deka is a "sealed" maintenance free battery. So I am not sure about accessing it for use of a hydrometer. Ohh and certainly remember reading your thoughts of the lying "green lights". Made me laugh. And I know that you are right about it too.
 
The flooded maintenance free batteries I have experience with have a peculair characteristicin that they seem to stop accepting more than 0.05 amps of current at absorption voltage when fully charged, which is more a trait of AGM batteries than a flooded battery.

I was told by the guy who helped me to learn that such batteries, when inadvertently deeply cycled, require 15 volts absorption voltage sought and held until amps taper to near Zero and are particularly susceptible to hardened sulfation if they do not get the 15V to full charge. I don;t know for sure, I simply set my power supply to 15 volts and let it rip until it was taking 0.03 amps and 2+ years later, the battery is still in my friend's vehicle.

The higher percentage of calcium in the plates of flooded maintenance free batteries reduces water usage and they expect the battery to fail before ever needing to be watered.

Apparently they make for poor marine batteries if deeply cycled, which of course can be inadvertently accomplished.

As always with any severely discharged battery that is jumpstarted, it is very important to fully charge it ASAP by a plug in chargnig source, and not rely on only the alternator to do so.

Some maintenance free flooded batteries can be watered, the cell covers are just not all that friendly to open and might not fit so great if butchered when removed.

If you are eager to learn/ discern when your battery is fully charged, you can splice one of these inline on your chargers( sub 25 amp) DC output:

https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Precision...power+wattmeter

There are many clones of the above product, Some appear much better than others at reading low amperages, but the voltage is accurate, and they also measure amp hours and Watt hours, Peak watts peak amps and minimum voltage Some of them do time since connected too.
So you can see how much the charger has returned to the battery, and estimate how much it was discharged. Some of the Charger's wattage will have been lost to heat though, but again, future readings become more valid with more bases for comparison.

My older schumacher's display and lights have failed, useless as they were, but with the wattmeter inline, I can see what the charger is doing and which buttons I pressed.
 
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One other thing to note is batteries can self discharge upto 15% per month at 75F, more at higher ambinet temperatures and less at lower, So simply parking the vehile and pulling a battery cable, in hot ambient temperatures can do a number on it, especially in summer.

The rate of self discharge increases with age.

parasitic loads of modern vehciles is also considerably higher that yesteryear, so a parked car can deplete a healthy fully charged battery to jump start level in as little as 3 weeks.

Obviously this figure is very platform specific, but one can see how a parked rarely driven vehicle's battery is kinds doomed unless the owner Keeps it topped up every so often or continuously on a maintenance/float charger. Best if such a charger has temperature compensation, as Ideal float voltage changes drastically the further from 75F battery temperature gets.
 
Good to know!

Just purchased an East Penn-made Duracell after the OEM battery started venting out of the negative terminal. This will help to take care of it.
 
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