Car approaching 90K - Brake Fluid change time?

[TJPark01]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
Brakes are more important than any drivetrain component. Stopping, as many find, is more important than going.

Unfortunately the brake fluid doesn't squeak and the ECU doesn't tell you to change it.

 

[oilmaven]

I had the brake fluid in my 1996 Accord flushed a couple of months ago. It had never been done in 14 years and the brakes worked fine. I noticed no change AFTER the flush (I've never flushed brake fluid in my life...bled them and added some new stuff but NEVER totally replaced the fluid). I can't think of anyone else that's done it either despite all the manufacturers recommendations (dealership only charged me $40 so no biggie). I have a feeling that this and flushing the power steering may be the biggest "neglected" services for most cars.

 

[Tremo]

Castrol LMA.

 

[cos]

oilmaven,

You might not feel a difference but it is there - your old fluid was no doubt quite close to boiling over had you got it hot enough.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: TJPark01
The dangerous thing about the BF issue, is that it's a slow degradation over time and very subtle. Brakes will work fine and you're lulled into a false sense of security. But if you have a panic stop situation, in inclement or extreme weather. Or you find yourself on vacation with a full load of passengers and cargo down a mountain pass. That is not the time to discover that you've been neglecting a key component to your braking system.


Exactly!!

Most people that proclaim their 10 year old, or whatever, fluid is just fine, probably never pushed their braking system to the limit, while it's true that under normal driving conditions one will probably not notice the difference, but the boiling point of the brake fluid can only go down with age, so don't be surprised when the brake pedal becomes a spongy rubber band that goes to the floor after one or two emergency stops or after descending a hill with car fully loaded. Water and moisture seals are not perfect, the system is opened up for brake pad changes or when the fluid is topped up.

If moisture was not an issue then brake fluid would not be designed to be hygroscopic in the first place, but yet it is.

I find it a little ironic that topics like: which oil is better, synthetic vs. dino or extended OCi's are literally beaten to death on this site, yet something simple like brake fluid change, that can really mean your survivor or demise in emergency situations, is still considered a non issue by some.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
As long as the brake fluid is the correct spec [DOT 3 or whatever] you can use anybody's.
Name brand means nothing here.
but you are right to flush it out at this point.


Although you can use anything within your particular "DOT" spec it's important to state, though, that all brake fluid isn't the same in the same way that "xW30 weight" engine oil isn't all the same.

Some fluids within the same DOT category are better than others. Some have extremely high dry boiling points but absorb more water and do it faster, thus degrading to wet boiling point quicker. Some have fairly mediocre dry boiling points but the wet boiling point isn't much lower so the critical properties don't change much as the fluid ages.

Just as with lubricants, it is better to select a "good" quality fluid at a price point that you're comfortable changing often rather than an exotic and expensive fluid which you are inclined to run too long.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Gm now thinks about 7 years is good for BF.
Our fears of water in a good/healthy system are largely unfounded. Where is this water coming from?


I try to flush my BF every year/15,000km but often it goes to 2 years. Even at the one year mark I feel an improvement in pedal firmness and clutch action (shared fluid). I use quality fluid (lately ATE Typ200/SuperBlue DOT4) intended for "long life" so it isn't a fluid quality issue.

People like to debate long intervals on gear oils, differential lube and engine oil too. I could be accused of changing too often but when I feel an improvement as soon as I finish the fluid change, then something had degraded and the change isn't completely unnecessary, IMO. It is true, however, that I may get similar results with a decent bleed and top up instead of a full flush but, really, once you've decided you're bleeding 4 corners plus clutch it's not that much more work or expense to bleed it through until the colour changes.

IMO it's also a good idea to at least do a decent bleed to get all of the rubber wear materials out of the caliper and clutch master/slave area. Another factor that a lot of people don't consider is the ABS loop. On a lot of cars only a dealer or equivalent computer can activate the ABS loop during bleeding to cycle new fluid through. If you wait until the absolute last minute with your fluid changes you need to flush this loop too. When you change the BF more often than required natural and occasional activation of the ABS over time with flush newer fluid through.

Vehicles on which I've noticed improvements from annual bleed throughs: Acura Integra, Porsche 968, BMW 528.

To the OP: I may sound harsh but I would call 90K without a fluid flush or at least a good bleed "borderline neglect". It's only 4 years old, which is the interval suggested by some manufacturers, but I think you have higher than average mileage for that interval.

 

[rslifkin]

To push new fluid through the ABS without a dealer scan tool, you can always find a dirt or gravel road, get up some speed, and stomp the brakes to kick the ABS for a solid few seconds. Then, re-bleed the system to replace the old fluid that got pushed out of the ABS system.

 

[MCompact]

I change the fluid in my 318ti and Mazdaspeed track rats every six months. The X3 gets fresh fluid every two years- ditto for the S3. The '02 and Jeep have been neglected(shame on me), but they will both get a flush before winter. By the way, the Jeep's hydraulic clutch system is separate and sealed; when the master cylinder, slave cylinder, or hose fails you have to buy the complete assembly.

 

[Gary Allan]

The brake fluid issue is mostly overblown. Seriously. The DIY'r is the most at risk when he'll do pad slaps. A common consumer will wear out brakes every 2 years and the professional will bleed the brakes.

I WOULD do it if I had ABS since the module is very expensive and I keep cars a long time. Take my son's 96 NEON. If the ABS module goes bad ..you might as well drive it to the junkyard. Just a wheel sensor is over $100.

The only time I've ever personally viewed the effect (or even HEARD of it) was a 4 piston Vette that sat for years in a garage. It did corrode the calipers/pistons and they needed rebuilding.

This issue has no factual historical merit. The millions of unit that have never had this service performed ..if there was 10% of the truth most here assign it ......

..you would have a national safety campaign (that would make the seat belt campaign of the 60's look mild) that would be essential in the form of public service ..TV ..radio ..newspapers.

We don't. It's not.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The brake fluid issue is mostly overblown. Seriously. The DIY'r is the most at risk when he'll do pad slaps. A common consumer will wear out brakes every 2 years and the professional will bleed the brakes.


Huh? Even if that's true it still means it needs to be done every 2 years - and brake fluid changes ARE listed on all vehicle maintenance requirements. Installing Magnefines into the power steering system and changing the fluid every OC isn't required and "we" still do that here....

How many common consumers wear out brakes every two years? I had my 1990 Integra (which was driven almost exclusively in town and had undersized brakes) from 1993 to 2001 starting with the factory brakes and changed the brakes once. One change in 11 years on the road. That was just to try PBR Metalmasters - they didn't even need changing. I had my 1992 Porsche 968 from 2000-2005 and I changed the brakes once. That was because the PO used some aftermarket pads I didn't like which compromised the first couple of stops - in particular a panic stop on the highway so I changed them. My 1998 BMW had its first brake job in 2003 and that was because of corrosion on the rotor edges starting to make noise - I still had plenty of rotor and pad thickness left. Those rears from 2003 are still on the car today and my corrosion prevention was better than the factory's on the rotors so there's no noise. I changed the fronts last year and I'll probably change the rears before winter because there's a small chance I'll be down to 3mm pad thickness before next DIY season.

I didn't drive any of these cars lightly and brakes went a lot longer than two years. IMO, they often last TOO long, meaning that service, maintenance and inspection isn't required often enough leading to a lot of people with sticking or otherwise inoperative brakes. I've seen my share of people driving Hondas with four wheel disc systems (which are supposed to have the caliper slides lubed annually) with persistent rust across the entire braking surface of the disc. This means that brake is inoperative. Just the person you want tailgating you or your children on the highway.

The last thing we need is people advising Joe Average to do LESS vehicle maintenance!

I'll say it again - when I change a fluid be it brake, transmission, whatever and I notice a positive improvement in the car after doing so then it needed changing IMO. This is my experience with brake fluid even done once per year. Did my car fly off the road or did my calipers seize when I went longer? No. But the fluid WAS less effective and the system picked up moisture or air.

 

[Kestas]

It's irresponsible for anyone to make a one-size-fits-all statement. I've seen both ends of the spectrum.

I've worked on cars back in the 70s when brakes lasted 30K, and our active family put 25K per year on these shared cars. Flushing the brakes every pad change kept the brakes in good condition.

Now brakes can easily last 50K, and I put no more than 5K per year on my vehicles. It is imperative that I change the fluid on a timely basis, especially in my climate.

Speaking of Corvettes, I had a 12 year old '66 model with seized rear brake calipers. The calipers had horrible corrosion pitting and needed complete replacement. Tech articles at the time addressed the problem and mentioned that the calipers were poorly designed, and over time they slurped air and water back into the pistons during the return stroke. Plus, the 4-piston design allowed minimal movement of the seals, exacerbating the problem.

 

[Shuttler]

I guess it depends on the design of the system. On Panthers we never change it. Although, PS fluid is changed every couple of years. Service station jockeys keep trying to show how dark the fluid is, etc. There was a Ford TSb advising against the bleed btw

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Huh? Even if that's true it still means it needs to be done every 2 years - and brake fluid changes ARE listed on all vehicle maintenance requirements.


Which ones and what year did it start. It wasn't a MOPAR from 2002 back. How essential could it have been? I've poled a number of service professionals. Some with 50 years in. Some are leading edge indy's. While they've heard of it now due to the various vendor clinics and ..indeed there may be need NOW, for decades .....scores ..you name it, this hasn't ever been a common practice. It's a laundry list of stuff that's been added to the "must do" column. How did life manage before that time? The brake fluid is unchanged.

Quote:
How many common consumers wear out brakes every two years?


Lots. Most from my experience ..3 years max. Very few cars make it through 2 safety inspections without brake service. Aside from the state safety inspection, I'd like to find the person who got a brake job preemptively. I'm sure that person exists, but I've never met them. When it has problems, they get it fixed.

Quote:
One change in 11 years on the road. That was just to try PBR Metalmasters - they didn't even need changing. I had my 1992 Porsche 968 from 2000-2005 and I changed the brakes once. That was because the PO used some aftermarket pads I didn't like which compromised the first couple of stops - in particular a panic stop on the highway so I changed them. My 1998 BMW had its first brake job in 2003 and that was because of corrosion on the rotor edges starting to make noise - I still had plenty of rotor and pad thickness left. Those rears from 2003 are still on the car today and my corrosion prevention was better than the factory's on the rotors so there's no noise. I changed the fronts last year and I'll probably change the rears before winter because there's a small chance I'll be down to 3mm pad thickness before next DIY season.


Yeah ..and unicorns do exist. You've never owned a Peugeot with OEM pads that wore out every 3 weeks with highway driving, have you? There's another unicorn. Totally unique.

Are you seriously basing the rolling consumer fleet upon your experience? If your experience was at all common, there would be no aftermarket brake business at all. You would get one brake job over the life of the chassis or 15 years whichever came first.

Nope.

Quote:
The last thing we need is people advising Joe Average to do LESS vehicle maintenance!


Don't worry yourself ..seriously. There are legions of marketing arms of aftermarket vendors to tell you stuff you never ever heard of before ...and ABSOLUTELY NEVER EXPERIENCED ..nor knew anyone who did ...to add to your "MUST DO" list.

If you don't adopt the practice, they'll just complicate it for you.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Now brakes can easily last 50K, and I put no more than 5K per year on my vehicles. It is imperative that I change the fluid on a timely basis, especially in my climate.


Note the alteration. This is a demographic evolution, not a design one.

And no one has come up with a plausible reason why this wasn't an OEM recommended maintenance item on domestic cars before the millennium and in my case 2002. I went through both A and B schedules. "Inspect brake lining" was the only mention of brakes. In the brake section, it says to use DOT 3 approved fluid.

Where were all these smart engineers? How could they have put us all at risk for so long? Millions of units rolling daily and all but the last few years RISKING THEIR LIVES for lack of this essential service.

Anyone?

Now if you want to say "Hey, it's cheap and easy and there's really no downside to it. I feel better. I'm paranoid about my ABS module that costs $2000 remanufactured ..etc..etc.

Great.

But I bet if you really think about it, you've merely been convinced that this is a must do and have absolutely no statistical/material proof that it has ever been required.


Now a Euro? Sure. They'll spec aviation grade synthetic central hydraulic fluid @ $20/pint if it gives them .000001% more aplomb or farfegnugen. It's in their DNA.

Swagger added for devil's non-avocacy effect

 

[Gary Allan]

Just to bring this back on balance. If you're retired and/or the brakes don't get a enough action to be serviced in a timely manner .....OR if you're a lazy DIY'r and never have to turn rotors since you preemptively change the pads (another "must do" I've bypassed and managed to see no ill effects from- nor wasting $$ and resources on new rotors because their cheap) ..then by all means, rotate some fluid out.

I think that it's wise in avoided costs just for keeping the bleeder screws from seizing.

 

[Kestas]

Gary, the answer to your questions has many facets. One is that the average consumer doesn't want to be saddled with another elective visit for preemptive service. If the service isn't mentioned by the manufacturer, then the average car owner thinks his car is rather easy and painless to maintain. The owner is happy and the manufacturer is happy, win-win. Seven or eight years down the road the brakes may start giving trouble such as pull to one side or the brakes wear unevenly. The shop tells them they need new calipers, and the car owner simply shrugs and accepts this fact, and considers his car as having old age problems. It's simply ingrained in our automotive culture.

 

[Gary Allan]

Fair enough. It is also true that the aftermarket is into to keeping the cash flowing in their direction. Sometimes it benefits the consumer in terms of value, but always benefits the vendor/service provider.

Have you seen The Critic's list of "must do's" for pad:rotor service? You would need a fat wallet to live through that service provider. No one is going to do that amount of work economically. They may do it fast to make the $$$ ..but it's not going to be cheap for the end user. I soon expect outpatient specialists, where the technician is an automotive surgeon ..with an assistant and two scrub nurses.


..but in the final analysis I think that this can be removed from the "You'll shoot your eye out if you don't do this, kid" panic/fear/anxiety/paranoia realm and bring it into a sensible rational status of "recommended for extended component integrity over the long term".

 

[Kestas]

If a person is not DIY and has to pay for maintenance, I typically tone down my recommendations and don't mention changing brake fluid or ps fluid, especially if they drive enough miles. They would probably go broke doing everything we recommend here on BITOG. We do it because we're DIYers and can afford the service. Plus they know I'm a car nut and I know they would dismiss a lot of what I could recommend. I stick with recommending the service that gives them the best bang for the buck, such as paying for a transmission fluid exchange if they are over 60K. After all, talk to any lawyer, dentist, or other professional, and they typically give you a long list of things they recommend as preemptive actions you should take - stuff you and I usually ignore.

 

[caprice_2nv]

I agree 100% with Kesta's. I'm currently a service adviser until I go back to school next month. The stuff I do to my car is way beyond what I would recommend my customers do.

If i did recommend all that stuff at the intervals I do on my own, they would think I'm trying to rip them off. Luckily most of our customers don't look at us with the same distrust that many of the members on here do when it comes to repair facilities. Most of our customers are long term customers and we could easily change their opinion of us if we started trying to up sell at the intervals we'd do on our own vehicles.

We recommend they change their brake fluid and p/s fluid when it becomes very dark looking. Coolant and trans fluid we try and get done at the intervals the manufacturer recommends, but if a customer needs other expensive mechanical repairs when they're in it's hard to sell them maintenance on top of that at the same time.