Canister filter surprise. Cts 3.6
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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
What does the center tube look like? ...
Good question. Also, if it's intact, does that brand and model filter allow a relatively large radial space between the inner diameter of its media and the center tube (of the cap or housing)? Some do, meaning the media is not supported by the center tube until it has partially collapsed.
What does the center tube look like? ...
Good question. Also, if it's intact, does that brand and model filter allow a relatively large radial space between the inner diameter of its media and the center tube (of the cap or housing)? Some do, meaning the media is not supported by the center tube until it has partially collapsed.
Even though the OP's problem may not have been caused by the filter itself, what would've happened if you use a wire-backed synthetic filter like Fram Ultra or Wix XP? The media wouldn't collapse since it's wire-backed, but could it have otherwise shown any damage?
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Even though the OP's problem may not have been caused by the filter itself, what would've happened if you use a wire-backed synthetic filter like Fram Ultra or Wix XP? The media wouldn't collapse since it's wire-backed, but could it have otherwise shown any damage?
If both the pressure regulator and bypass valves are stuck closed, then eventually the Fram Ultra or Wix XP would crush.
Even though the OP's problem may not have been caused by the filter itself, what would've happened if you use a wire-backed synthetic filter like Fram Ultra or Wix XP? The media wouldn't collapse since it's wire-backed, but could it have otherwise shown any damage?
If both the pressure regulator and bypass valves are stuck closed, then eventually the Fram Ultra or Wix XP would crush.
Why would anyone choose to believe that both the pressure regulator and the bypass valve are malfunctioning? Seems to be everything else one could possibly imagine that malfunctioned- except the filter.
Apparently I am not alone.
Wix - collapsed filters
Filter Council - Collapsed filters
Fram - collapsed filters
Wix - collapsed filters
Filter Council - Collapsed filters
Fram - collapsed filters
Thanks WellOiled, but those appear to be general FAQs on collapsed filter elements- two from filter manufacturers. Do you believe that it's reasonable to assume that both pressure reg. and bypass have failed? That seems unlikely.
The FRAM document does say:
Oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant,
or oxidation;
The condensation point is excellent. Certain media do not tolerate moisture at all, ie from chronic short tripping. Combine that with high system flow, higher oil viscosities and beating a cold engine and this outcome is really not a surprise. Would that be an example of faulty engine components or a filter with low/no margin of error that can't stand up? Really all OP needs to do first is use an OEM filter element and check if it happens again. I'd wager it doesn't. Ockham's razor.
The FRAM document does say:
Oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant,
or oxidation;
The condensation point is excellent. Certain media do not tolerate moisture at all, ie from chronic short tripping. Combine that with high system flow, higher oil viscosities and beating a cold engine and this outcome is really not a surprise. Would that be an example of faulty engine components or a filter with low/no margin of error that can't stand up? Really all OP needs to do first is use an OEM filter element and check if it happens again. I'd wager it doesn't. Ockham's razor.
Originally Posted By: KingCake
You realize cars go into bypass all the time, even with a new filter right? This is why a tiny tear in a filter media doesn't really matter.
You realize when filters have tiny tears all the time, I switch brands?
You realize cars go into bypass all the time, even with a new filter right? This is why a tiny tear in a filter media doesn't really matter.
You realize when filters have tiny tears all the time, I switch brands?
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A tiny tear on a filter means almost all the oil is unfiltered
Nope. That's not how physics works. I suggest reading books.
+1
I always recommend using Darcy's equation to prove your point but then the grand FRAM wizard usually posts immediately afterward and re-casts a spell on the minions to get them back in line.
It's clear that when you take a highly permeable media and punch a small hole in it, oil under pressure still readily flows through the remaining intact media. Filter efficiency is reduced by the hole but in a multi-pass oil system, the oil is still effectively filtered.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A tiny tear on a filter means almost all the oil is unfiltered
Nope. That's not how physics works. I suggest reading books.
+1
I always recommend using Darcy's equation to prove your point but then the grand FRAM wizard usually posts immediately afterward and re-casts a spell on the minions to get them back in line.
It's clear that when you take a highly permeable media and punch a small hole in it, oil under pressure still readily flows through the remaining intact media. Filter efficiency is reduced by the hole but in a multi-pass oil system, the oil is still effectively filtered.
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Thanks WellOiled, but those appear to be general FAQs on collapsed filter elements- two from filter manufacturers. Do you believe that it's reasonable to assume that both pressure reg. and bypass have failed? That seems unlikely.
The FRAM document does say:
Oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant,
or oxidation;
The condensation point is excellent. Certain media do not tolerate moisture at all, ie from chronic short tripping. Combine that with high system flow, higher oil viscosities and beating a cold engine and this outcome is really not a surprise. Would that be an example of faulty engine components or a filter with low/no margin of error that can't stand up? Really all OP needs to do first is use an OEM filter element and check if it happens again. I'd wager it doesn't. Ockham's razor.
1. While these are answers to FAQs, they are the best explanations of this problem I have found. No one at BITOG has proffered a better one.
2. I do believe it is possible to have both the pressure regulator valve and the bypass valve stick closed. I also believe this is a relatively rare event. Slow valve operation might be sufficient to cause an event.
3. Oil and filter conditions certainly would be factors in this problem. What was the viscosity of the oil when the event occurred? What happens to the oil viscosity when condensation is present? What was the DP across the filter at the time of the event? What is the maximum stress the filter can stand without destruction?
4. A different filter might produce a different outcome. But there is no guarantee the conditions would remain the same.
Thanks WellOiled, but those appear to be general FAQs on collapsed filter elements- two from filter manufacturers. Do you believe that it's reasonable to assume that both pressure reg. and bypass have failed? That seems unlikely.
The FRAM document does say:
Oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant,
or oxidation;
The condensation point is excellent. Certain media do not tolerate moisture at all, ie from chronic short tripping. Combine that with high system flow, higher oil viscosities and beating a cold engine and this outcome is really not a surprise. Would that be an example of faulty engine components or a filter with low/no margin of error that can't stand up? Really all OP needs to do first is use an OEM filter element and check if it happens again. I'd wager it doesn't. Ockham's razor.
1. While these are answers to FAQs, they are the best explanations of this problem I have found. No one at BITOG has proffered a better one.
2. I do believe it is possible to have both the pressure regulator valve and the bypass valve stick closed. I also believe this is a relatively rare event. Slow valve operation might be sufficient to cause an event.
3. Oil and filter conditions certainly would be factors in this problem. What was the viscosity of the oil when the event occurred? What happens to the oil viscosity when condensation is present? What was the DP across the filter at the time of the event? What is the maximum stress the filter can stand without destruction?
4. A different filter might produce a different outcome. But there is no guarantee the conditions would remain the same.
Quite a few failed FRAM filters in BMW and other Euro cartridge applications have been posted on here in the past.
But I've been using FRAM in my Camry cartridge filter application for a number of years with good results.
I'd stay away from FRAM in more rigorous duty applications like your Cadillac.
But I've been using FRAM in my Camry cartridge filter application for a number of years with good results.
I'd stay away from FRAM in more rigorous duty applications like your Cadillac.
I have a Jeep Wrangler with a 3.6 pentastar. There is numerous warnings on the Wrangler forums about cartridge filters collapsing due to over torquing them when installing them in the housing unit. Could this be the situation here?
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Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A tiny tear on a filter means almost all the oil is unfiltered
Nope. That's not how physics works. I suggest reading books.
I don't know about that King Cake, but I provided some explanation in my post, you did not. It's not even something to argue about, it depends on the size of the tear, the condition of the media clogged or not, the oil viscosity, the temperature, and the rpm of the engine or flow rate, and more. It could be calculated how much oil is unfiltered. The blurbs on bypass and relief valves sticking doesn't include a third factor, if the media is new or clogged. The two valves are usually closed in normal use, and the oil flows through the element. That Cadillac in the picture and the oil and filter don't look worn out to me. The chance that the bypass and relief valve are both stuck and the element can't flow oil well enough to keep the pressure low enough through the filter is virtually zero. My vote is for bad installation. I'll be sure to get to the library as soon as possible to start reading books.
Delco changed the part from PF2130 to PF2129G if that is the filter used on this car. FWIW I was at WM yesterday so looked at the filters of course, the PF1229G was on the shelf at 7.97, made in USA and looked like a very nicely made filter, small, with metal center tube and round holes.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
A tiny tear on a filter means almost all the oil is unfiltered
Nope. That's not how physics works. I suggest reading books.
I don't know about that King Cake, but I provided some explanation in my post, you did not. It's not even something to argue about, it depends on the size of the tear, the condition of the media clogged or not, the oil viscosity, the temperature, and the rpm of the engine or flow rate, and more. It could be calculated how much oil is unfiltered. The blurbs on bypass and relief valves sticking doesn't include a third factor, if the media is new or clogged. The two valves are usually closed in normal use, and the oil flows through the element. That Cadillac in the picture and the oil and filter don't look worn out to me. The chance that the bypass and relief valve are both stuck and the element can't flow oil well enough to keep the pressure low enough through the filter is virtually zero. My vote is for bad installation. I'll be sure to get to the library as soon as possible to start reading books.
Delco changed the part from PF2130 to PF2129G if that is the filter used on this car. FWIW I was at WM yesterday so looked at the filters of course, the PF1229G was on the shelf at 7.97, made in USA and looked like a very nicely made filter, small, with metal center tube and round holes.
Wasn't there a situation a year or two ago with GM four cylinder
engines and oil filters?
Simple cure was to install element in cover/cap before placing filter in
engine.
My 2¢
engines and oil filters?
Simple cure was to install element in cover/cap before placing filter in
engine.
My 2¢
Thats big pressure. Bypass valve stuck. Of all the above speculation, its by far the most likely cause.
Originally Posted By: phi69
I have a Jeep Wrangler with a 3.6 pentastar. There is numerous warnings on the Wrangler forums about cartridge filters collapsing due to over torquing them when installing them in the housing unit. Could this be the situation here?
If the filter was bound in the housing yes. With regard to the Pentastar, another problem is over torquing the cap can crack the housing and/or cause leaks. I use a torque wrench on mine.
I have a Jeep Wrangler with a 3.6 pentastar. There is numerous warnings on the Wrangler forums about cartridge filters collapsing due to over torquing them when installing them in the housing unit. Could this be the situation here?
If the filter was bound in the housing yes. With regard to the Pentastar, another problem is over torquing the cap can crack the housing and/or cause leaks. I use a torque wrench on mine.
OP,
Did you change anything other than the oil and filter? Glad the new filter is working well.
Did you change anything other than the oil and filter? Glad the new filter is working well.
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