Can someone explain VW 502/505 cert?

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Okay, I'm beginning to understand some of the issues with various oils but now I'm to the point in my search where the question of "What is VW cert and why do I care?" is entering my consciousness.

I know VW uses these certifications to qualify a car for warrantee service should an oil related failure occur. But does anyone here know what they are testing? What specific qualities does an oil have to have (or NOT have) to become VW certified? It's easy to find a list of certified oils but I am trying to find out if there is anything in there I should care about??

By example Royal Purple is API and ACEA certified but not VW. VW certs obliquely refer to things like 'for direct injected engines'. Is ACEA A3 enough of a spec or is VW 502/505 more specific to these engines?

I've had people at companies whose oils are not certified say things like 'It's the origin of the base stock' and 'you have to pay a lot of money to get their cert' and such.

I would expect these to be purely performance based tests - things like wear, emissions, cooling, flow rates etc. so any oil making these standards could be certified (regardless of chemistry) AND I would think becoming certified would more than pay for itself.

Maybe I'm just reading too much marketing but the thing I can't shake is the (not too subtly hidden) message that 'there are things in our oil that we feel make it better than VW 502/505 but they also put it outside the VW spec. We feel these things are more important to your engine and will not remove them just to meet this spec' (you know the companies I'm talking about - there are three specifically ;-).

This, of course is in conflict with the VW message of 'there are magical components in 502/505 certified oils and your car will explode without them'.

I suspect there are non certified oils out there that meet some or most of these specs. but understanding what these specs. address is a step toward knowing.

For background, the car is a 2002 VW Jetta 1.8T with 122K so I don't think warrantee is an issue. More the question is "Is there anything I should be aware of that an oil meeting these certs does (or does not?) do?"

I know there are people who will just say 'use oil x or oil y and you'll be fine' and those who will say 'the list of VW certified oils is extensive (it is) just pick one of those and move on'. I get both answers but this is more just to help me understand what the VW specs are based on.

Sorry for the rambling. I do appreciate the feedback.

Ken
 
You put out a lot of questions and thoughts, all good ones, suffice to say at 122k on a known sludge producing engine, there are a few things to look at. If performance is good, and no sludge present then use an A3 or a 502 oil of your choice. I'd check the UOA section here and you can base from there what works and what doesn't.
If performance is not at par or sludge is present then look into Auto-Rx and solve that issue first.

For the record, my new '02 didn't see VW spec oil for six years until the oil I've used religiously magically appeared on their "approved list." It runs much better now that it has approved oil.
 
Originally Posted By: moribundman
It's that time of the year again. Can someone PLEASE fix the search feature?


moribundman, if this was previously discussed, I didn't find it. My profound apologies. I never meant to offend. If the 502 specs are in there, I'll go look again, thanks!

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
You put out a lot of questions and thoughts, all good ones, suffice to say at 122k on a known sludge producing engine, there are a few things to look at. If performance is good, and no sludge present then use an A3 or a 502 oil of your choice.


Thanks ChiTDI. Appreciate the input. I know the general take on oil is that most of the top names are pretty good. That doesn't mean there aren't differences.

Performance seems fine but it's a daily driver, not a race car so I don't keep 0-60 or top speed data for comparisons. It gets me to the grocery and Home Depot reliably enough.

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
I'd check the UOA section here and you can base from there what works and what doesn't. If performance is not at par or sludge is present then look into Auto-Rx and solve that issue first.


I've been reading UOAs for days and days (my wife thinks I'm having an online affair! ;-). They are interesting but the conclusion I'm coming to is every combination of individual engine (mfg, usage, previous oil etc) and oil (maybe even each batch of oil?) really is unique and what seems good for one may or may not be for another (the old "past performance is no indication..." investment caveat.

I did send off my first UOA last week and plan to do so several more times over the next several years to try and see what is (hopefully) or is not working. I will post these here to try to learn something.

And, I do have Auto-RX in there now (per so many recommendations here). I don't know that there is anything for it to do but, as you say, it's a known sludger so maybe? Put it in the wife's Eclipse too, though it seems less picky than my 'dub.

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
For the record, my new '02 didn't see VW spec oil for six years until the oil I've used religiously magically appeared on their "approved list." It runs much better now that it has approved oil.


Good one! For quite a while I ran non VW 502 oils in mine as well (mostly through ignorance). Mobil EP 5W30. No oil related issues I know of and runs great. I probably change it too often but that seems like cheap insurance. Don't ask me why I decided until now to try to learn something about oil. I guess they say you can't really learn anything until you are ready to learn it... Maybe I'm just ready now?

Anyway, thanks!

Ken
 
kuz
Are you the original owner?
Your UOA deductions are pretty much right on, quite often you'll see patterns and then real conclusions can be drawn.
If you've been using a pure syn, like the M1 EP 5w30 that you mentioned, sludge may be a nonevent. Hope that is the case.
Post your UOA results and include some history. There are a lot of really knowlegeabe people here, they just don't come screaming out of the woodwork like on some other forums.
Search also in the Import Oil section and you'll see some banter on what oil works well and what doesn't for your 1.8T.
Personally, I'd be all over Castrol 0w30 or GC as we call it, for your engine. Lots of history with that one. Keebler elves pictures if they are still available, are an absolute stitch.
 
Originally Posted By: kbuzbee
moribundman, if this was previously discussed, I didn't find it. My profound apologies. I never meant to offend. If the 502 specs are in there, I'll go look again, thanks!


I'm offended by the abysmal search function, which has been useless for years. Your questions are good, but the answers are buried under tens of thousands of other posts. I don't have the necessary fortitude to start digging.
 
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
kuz
Are you the original owner?


I am, so I do have the advantage of knowing what was done, when and (mostly) how. Anything you're thinking of??

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
Your UOA deductions are pretty much right on, quite often you'll see patterns and then real conclusions can be drawn.


That's what I'm hoping for. And that was a big part of my initial question as to what sorts of things the VW certs cover. To help me see what the UOAs will tell me.

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
If you've been using a pure syn, like the M1 EP 5w30 that you mentioned, sludge may be a nonevent.


Yep, until I just put in Castrol Syntec 5W40 to run the Auto-RX that was all it had ever seen @5K with either M1 or K&N filter. I hope you're right about sludge. I kinda suspect you are.

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
Post your UOA results and include some history. There are a lot of really knowlegeabe people here, they just don't come screaming out of the woodwork like on some other forums.[/quote[

I surely will. I understand what you are saying. Even though the results I've been reading may not translate directly, the comments have been most educational.

What kinds of historical info would be helpful??

ChiTDI said:
Search also in the Import Oil section and you'll see some banter on what oil works well and what doesn't for your 1.8T.


I've read some but most of those discussions seem to get pretty religious ;-) Like I said, a lot of people (mostly on VWVORTEX) are 100% it has to be 502/505 or don't use it. Then there's the die hard brand X types. I don't find nearly as many 1.8T drivers here as there are on the VORTEX forum, of course.

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
Personally, I'd be all over Castrol 0w30 or GC as we call it, for your engine. Lots of history with that one. Keebler elves pictures if they are still available, are an absolute stitch.


Just bought some for my wife's Eclipse (didn't notice any elves!). Since most of the VW certs are 5W40, I'd kinda figured of going that route. I have some Pentosin cued up for after the ARX is done.

Didn't consider the GC for the Dub though. Stupid thinking as I "learn" more??? I mean, for 122K 5W30 has worked fine but now that I'm reading the rec is mostly 5W40, all the sudden 0W30 isn't thick enough???? ;-) What can I tell you? 8-0

Anyway, right now, I'm thinking of sending a change of Pentosin HP 5W40, Redline 5W40, Royal Purple 5W40 and Motul 5W40 off for UOAs and see what I can learn. Maybe I'll throw a change of GC into that mix as well.

At my current mileage that should carry me through 2010! (most of this car's miles were pre-retirement, I'm driving much less now - though not so few as my wife)

Thanks for the help!

Ken
 
Originally Posted By: moribundman
I'm offended by the abysmal search function, which has been useless for years. Your questions are good, but the answers are buried under tens of thousands of other posts. I don't have the necessary fortitude to start digging.


Ahhh, got'cha. Yeah, I haven't had as much luck as I'd hoped using it (I will keep trying though.

Thanks!

Ken
 
Welcome! I'm a former vwvortex addict.

VW 502.00 is based on ACEA A3/B? and adds stringency on some of the tests and the spec adds some tests not done in A3/B?. It's a decent spec but nothing top notch by today's best oil standards.

How clean does the metal look when you shine a flashlight into your engine's oil fill hole?

I'm now using Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck (CJ-4 version) in mine...I got 65 quarts of it on sale a few months ago. I think it will work out well...I'll find out eventually.

Here is a thread telling a story about my 1.8T experience (not a good one...otherwise I have enjoyed my GTI). http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=851613&fpart=1
 
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
Personally, I'd be all over Castrol 0w30 or GC as we call it, for your engine. Lots of history with that one. Keebler elves pictures if they are still available, are an absolute stitch.


Just bought some for my wife's Eclipse (didn't notice any elves!). Since most of the VW certs are 5W40, I'd kinda figured of going that route. I have some Pentosin cued up for after the ARX is done.

Didn't consider the GC for the Dub though. Stupid thinking as I "learn" more??? I mean, for 122K 5W30 has worked fine but now that I'm reading the rec is mostly 5W40, all the sudden 0W30 isn't thick enough???? ;-) What can I tell you? 8-0

Anyway, right now, I'm thinking of sending a change of Pentosin HP 5W40, Redline 5W40, Royal Purple 5W40 and Motul 5W40 off for UOAs and see what I can learn. Maybe I'll throw a change of GC into that mix as well.

At my current mileage that should carry me through 2010! (most of this car's miles were pre-retirement, I'm driving much less now - though not so few as my wife)

Thanks for the help!

Ken [/quote]

Those 5w40 choices are spot on. Pick one (or the GC) and go with it. You'll probably end up with another 125k.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Welcome! I'm a former vwvortex addict.


Thanks!! the Vortex is great but there sure is a TON of information here!

Originally Posted By: JAG
VW 502.00 is based on ACEA A3/B? and adds stringency on some of the tests and the spec adds some tests not done in A3/B?. It's a decent spec but nothing top notch by today's best oil standards.


Thanks, that's beginning to make sense.

Originally Posted By: JAG
How clean does the metal look when you shine a flashlight into your engine's oil fill hole?


Pretty good. A little varnishy. I'll stick a light in there next OC and give it a better look..

Originally Posted By: JAG
I'm now using Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck (CJ-4 version) in mine...I got 65 quarts of it on sale a few months ago. I think it will work out well...I'll find out eventually.


Looking forward to reading what you find.

Originally Posted By: JAG
Here is a thread telling a story about my 1.8T experience (not a good one...otherwise I have enjoyed my GTI). http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=851613&fpart=1


Wow! nice thread! Lot's of good info packed in there. I'm only understanding 30% of it so far.

Ken
 
Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
kbuz-
Is that Mobil 1 EP oil that you used VW 507 spec?
Talk about ironic.


I don't think so. It's listed as:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-30 meets the following industry approvals:
ILSAC GF-4
ACEA A1/A5, B1/B5
API SM
It also meets the requirements for diesel powered vehicles where an API CF or CD oil is recommended.

so I wouldn't think so.

Ken
 
Originally Posted By: JAG

Here is a thread telling a story about my 1.8T experience (not a good one...otherwise I have enjoyed my GTI). http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=851613&fpart=1


Jag.... man! That thread is terrifying!

Is that a common scenario? Or was this car abused and misused as a child??

I've read about the PVC's importance to this engine but it seems like they could have made the dang thing a bit more serviceable, eh??

I'm sorry but I'm not going to be tearing apart my engine or pulling it out of the car to clean it. If good oil and regular changes keeps it clean, I'm in but if regular maintenance still leaves an inch of crud over the whole inside, that's just WRONG!

Man, I wish I'd never seen those pictures ;-) Yikes!

Ken
 
Ken,

If the scenario you are asking about is a clogged PCV system on the GTI, what I can say is that the VW service department who replaced my GTI's system said that they have had to do the same on many 1.8T engines. I don't know how many of them were longitudinal (the more sludge-prone 1.8T) or the transverse engines. I also don't know what oils and OCIs those people used.

I bought my GTI new and it only ever got synthetic oils. It was always treated with complete care. It did get run hard for several hours at a time on highways every few weeks but I always let it cool down before turning the engine off. It never had to go through doing mostly short trips.

Yes it really sucks that the PCV system is so unserviceable and expensive.

The inch of crud engines are in a different league that mine was...in a negative way of course. That takes some serious oil degradation for it to get that bad. But many owners are clueless and don't even notice it until something "seems wrong" with their engines.

I'm still finding little carbon particles in the PCV system. They are from the past and are working their way around from parts that didn't get completely cleaned or replaced previously.
I wonder how likely it is that they could clog the tiny holes in one of the particularly stupid little PCV system parts. They are about the right size to do it!

The 1.8T engine generally needs an oil with strong detergency/dispersancy and thermo-oxidative stability, among other things. Synthetic Heavy Duty Engine Oils (HDEOs) are often great choices to fill that bill and now that there are versions with reasonably low SAPS (Sulfated Ash, Phosphorous, Sulfur), we don't have to be so concerned with our catalytic converters. BTW, mine did "die" at around 80K miles and was covered under warranty.

Some relatively easily obtainable and decently priced oils I recommend are Mobil 1 5W-40 TDT, M1 0W-40, Pentosin 0W-30 and 5W-40. I say don't use Lubromoly 5W-40 or 0W-40 which is what I was using when I noticed my engine got filthy. The conviction of the "criminal oil" in my case will never be found but those oils are at the top of the suspect list. I don't like GC either because it was the first oil that I needed to add top-up oil to and the gas mileage was record setting bad. Syntec 5W-40 has nothing going for it compared to its competition. There are some excellent oils that I have not mentioned but I'll keep my list of good ones short, though incomplete.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
I bought my GTI new and it only ever got synthetic oils. It was always treated with complete care. It did get run hard for several hours at a time on highways every few weeks but I always let it cool down before turning the engine off. It never had to go through doing mostly short trips.


Wow, sounds exactly like the life mine has lived(yikes!)!

Originally Posted By: JAG
Yes it really sucks that the PCV system is so unserviceable and expensive.


Especially if this is a system that needs regular monitoring and maintenance. Seems like most things on cars are designed to just get them through the warrantee period. Beyond that, most things that are difficult or expensive to fix are just profit to the dealership (too cynical?). Maybe (I can't believe I'm saying this) we need yet another rating system (like ACEA A3/B3 kind of thing) that rates cars on their maintainability? Not sure how it would work - I mean, what's maintainable to a guy with 30 years experience and a full shop is very different from what is maintainable to a guy like me who's done things like oil/filter, air filter, fuel filter rotate tires etc. Something basic like a 1-10 scale where a 1 means the dealer/professional has to even do an oil change and 10 (basically unobtainable) means the owner can reasonably do anything the car would ever need. Most cars would fall, say between 3-7. I'd rate my Jetta like a 4 or 5. Oil/air/fuel is easy enough but transmission is not. Sounds like PCV is not, for me, as well.

Originally Posted By: JAG
The inch of crud engines are in a different league that mine was...in a negative way of course. That takes some serious oil degradation for it to get that bad. But many owners are clueless and don't even notice it until something "seems wrong" with their engines.


Agreed but then, most things they would want to look for are not readily available, would you agree? I mean, sure, you can look in the oil filler area, but valve train/timing belt etc are pretty difficult to "look" at.

Originally Posted By: JAG
I'm still finding little carbon particles in the PCV system. They are from the past and are working their way around from parts that didn't get completely cleaned or replaced previously.
I wonder how likely it is that they could clog the tiny holes in one of the particularly stupid little PCV system parts. They are about the right size to do it!


Where are you seeing these particles?? Yes, sound like something to worry about.

Originally Posted By: JAG
... our catalytic converters. BTW, mine did "die" at around 80K miles and was covered under warranty.


I'm expecting mine to go. These things always seem to happen when we''re out of town. Had a fan-short keep blowing one of the fuses on the battery mounted box last time I was in West Chester, Pa. O2 sensors in Fla and N.C. I guess I was lucky I blew a coil and the transmission went both near home.

Originally Posted By: JAG
I don't like GC either because it was the first oil that I needed to add top-up oil to and the gas mileage was record setting bad.


And yet ChiTDI loves GC. I guess it just depends?

Originally Posted By: JAG
Syntec 5W-40 has nothing going for it compared to its competition.


Yeah, I'm running that now while I'm doing the ARX clean (and plan to run it for the flush). Don't expect to run it again after that but I am thinking of trying the GC to see how it does in mine. Appreciate the thoughts on LubroMoly. I'd been mulling that one as well.

Ken
 
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