called Exxon/Mobil about DC and DC+

[mikep]

I got around to calling the number at Exxon/Mobil provided by Carpy. I spoke to a very friendly fellow whos name I'll not post so as not to get him in any hot water (not sure if it would but why take the chance).

At first he stated the usual "we can't give out info about formulations", yada yada yada but when I was more specific in my questioning he opened up a bit. According to this gent;

1. Drive Clean is all group 3 and contains no group 1 as part of the base stock. Others have been told about a small amount of group 1 as a carrier for the add pack but perhaps it is such a small percentage that this guy doesn't figure it worth mentioning as a component.

2. Drive Clean Plus is a group 3/PAO mix.

He would not give specific percentages on the DCP.

Again, the guy was very nice but I could tell he was a little uneasy answering the questions.

 

[C4Dave]

I'm still waiting for the GF4 oils to show up at the local wally world. All they had this weekend was castrol and havoline.

 

[novadude]

Hard to believe that it is a lie when everyone is getting the same story.

 

[csp203]

Should we conclude that supertech oil (the one made by mobil) will be group 3.

 

[C4Dave]

I think Carpy said Supertech was 40% group 1 and 40% group 3.

 

[jbas]

Again, encouraging news. Drive Clean is $1.17/qt., and Drive Clean Plus is $2.18/qt., at WalMart. I would think the Drive Clean, if info true, was be a very fine value. "Faux synthetic" at just over a buck a quart. (Now, with coupon...!)

 

[Dominic]

Well Im trying it next oil change mainly to see if I can improve my fuel economy going to an energy conserving oil

But, Im also doing an oil analysis on it to make sure it wears as well or better than my maxlife.

 

[farfel]

quote:

---

Drive Clean, if info true, was be a very fine value. "Faux synthetic" at just over a buck

---

Mobil Drive Clean is Group 3, but is it hydro-cracked?

If not, it's just generic natural oil. It wouldn't qualify as a "synthetic-quality" oil like Castrol's hydro-cracked stuff

 

[Brons2]

Hydrocracking is the only process that I know of that produces Group III.

There is a new process of turning natural gas to liquid, called GTL, and it will supposedly produce a Group III+ that is even superior to what is available now, but that is a few years off.

 

[farfel]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brons2:
Hydrocracking is the only process that I know of that produces Group III.

---

I thought Group 3 existed before hydro-cracking (i.e. 30 years ago)? Was I wrong?

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by farfel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brons2:
Hydrocracking is the only process that I know of that produces Group III.

---

I thought Group 3 existed before hydro-cracking (i.e. 30 years ago)? Was I wrong?

---

You are correct. Early Grp III in Europe was produced the same way Grp I was, i.e., solvent dewaxing and hydrofinishing. Shell's XHVI is a wax isomerate and is not the product of hydrocracking the feedstock.

 

[Palut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brons2:
There is a new process of turning natural gas to liquid, called GTL, and it will supposedly produce a Group III+ that is even superior to what is available now, but that is a few years off.

---

I thought that natural gas was already synthesized formed PAO? Are these two different processes, or am I wrong?

 

[Ray H]

You're right, Palut - you're wrong. (Not really!

) PAOs are synthesized through a convoluted process in which natural gas is used to make a thin liquid which is then polymerized through a number of additional steps until olefins and ultimately, polyalphaolefins, emerge. The GTL process that Brons2 described is a two-step conversion of natural gas to a pure paraffin oil - "iso-paraffins". (Think of iso-paraffins as the purest Group III imaginable, NO naphthenes, NO sulfur, and you'll be very close conceptually.) The following quote from the Machinery Lubrication website summarizes the process:

"The GTL process is based on two primary steps:

1> The conversion of natural gas into synthesis gas - In the first step, natural gas is reacted with oxygen in a process using proprietary catalytic partial oxidation to produce synthesis gas, consisting primarily of carbon monoxide and hydrogen.
2> The conversion of synthesis gas into synthetic crude - In a reaction based on Fischer-Tropsch (F-T) chemistry, the synthesis gas flows into a reactor containing a proprietary catalyst, converting it into viscous liquid hydrocarbons.

Iso-paraffins represent the ideal base stock chemical structure. These structures are readily produced during the F-T wax upgrading step and are consistent with those found in polyalphaolefins, or PAOs. The Viscosity Index (VI) of iso-paraffins is extremely high while providing excellent oxidation resistance and good pour points."

Now, a knotty, mind-twisting question for all you "Group IV-and-Group V-are-the-only-true-synthetic-base-oils" snoots: since in step 1, with GTL, "stranded" natural gas is stripped down to carbon monoxide and hydrogen, and, then in step 2, those two gasses are polymerized to pure iso-paraffin Group III+ base oils, how would these Group III+ base oils NOT not be considered a true synthetic by accepted definitions of "synthesis"? (After all, a Group III, with or without the "+" symbol, is still a Group III.

)

[ November 04, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[farfel]

quote:

---

Originally posted by G-Man II:
You are correct. Early Grp III in Europe was produced the same way Grp I was, i.e., solvent dewaxing and hydrofinishing. Shell's XHVI is a wax isomerate and is not the product of hydrocracking the feedstock.

---

So there are actually TWO types of Group III:
- solvent dewaxed (inferior)
- hydro-cracked (like synthetic claims Castrol)

So which one is Mobil Drive Clean?

 

[Audi Junkie]

Shell's wax isomerate is superior to HC process Gruppe-III like Mobil's. The "slack wax" from Shell is likely the source for US Syntec base oil.

Gruppe-III and Gruppe II, II+ Hydroprocess oil is synthetic oil like "process" cheese is cheese.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brons2:
There is a new process of turning natural gas to liquid, called GTL, and it will supposedly produce a Group III+ that is even superior to what is available now, but that is a few years off.

---

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/gf4_faq.shtml

"This growth will take off, when natural-gas-derived base oils become available, towards the end of this decade. These gas-to-liquid (GTL) base oils will be super Group III oils. They are already they are being called Group III+ by many in the industry."

Several pilot plants are currently in operation, among them are Shell, Conoco, and ExxonMobil.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
Shell's wax isomerate is superior to HC process Gruppe-III like Mobil's. The "slack wax" from Shell is likely the source for US Syntec base oil.

---

ExxonMobil Group III products are competitive with Shell's in every category in which they compete.

Shell began wax hydroisomerization technology coupled with solvent dewaxing to manufacture extra high VI base oils in Europe. Exxon built similar plants in the 1990s.

In the United States, Mobil used catalytic dewaxing in place of solvent dewaxing, but still coupled it with solvent extraction to manufacture conventional neutral oils. Catalytic dewaxing was a desirable improvement to solvent dewaxing especially for conventional neutral oils, because it utilized simplified operations to remove n-paraffins and waxy side chains from other molecules by cracking them into smaller molecules. This lowered the pour point of the base oil so that it flowed at low temperatures, like solvent dewaxed oils.

ExxonMobil offers competitive refining technology based on its own manufacturing processes:

http://www.prod.exxonmobil.com/refiningtechnologies/

and the trend is to combine hydrocracking, isodewaxing and hydrofinishing so that you're not restricted to a narrow range of crude oils but have considerable feed stock flexibility.

What distinguishes a Group III is how it performs and measures, not what process or processes were used.

 

[ebaker]

In Walmart today they had GF4's from Chevron, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Motorcraft, and Mobil. I also noticed the new Delo400 gallons had a new formula and no longer listed ACEA A3.