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- Jun 2, 2003
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I'm posting this here with permission by someone who has had an oil consumption problem with thicker oil in his Audi A4 for some time. He insisted that the straight 30W RedLine oil he used curbed oil consumption. But now he found something else:
[12v Development Discussion]
my oil use problem resolved or: some people have all the luck
Posted by UrS4 on 2004-06-25 11:31:02
as most of you know I went from over 3500 miles per qt of oil to using a quart almost every time I fueled up (1qt/270miles).
I even did leak-down and compression tests to trace it as well as larger diameter breather hoses with zero relief.
In desperation I decided to do an oil change and new filter on the off-hand chance that was causing it. Well, low and behold 300 miles later and not a single drop has been used. Looks like I'm back on course. I knew just a change in oil couldn't be responsible so today I dug the filter that was on the car out of the trash. It is a Mann OEM filter I purchase in case quantities. It has 870 miles on it since last oil change.
I dissected the filter this morning and found the issue immediately once it was cut apart and compared it to a new, never used Mann filter that I also cut open. Turns out the **** bypass/pressure relief valve was stuck in the open position and couldn't close on the one mounted in my car. This means I was running open oil recirculation with no filtration whatsoever for the last 870 miles but more importantly I was running well over 120psi oil pressure at anything past 3,000 RPM's and closer to 70psi at idle. Without restriction our oil pump is capable of generating over 200psi oil pressure. No wonder I've been using oil like a SOB! Gotta be a gazillion-to-1 longshot and I drew the short straw. I was stumped... completely, totally befuddled. I was utterly delighted when the problem disappeared after the most recent oil/filter change but I'm a LOT happier now knowing what the problem was!
You can't imagine the hours I've spent worrying/obsessing over this one. Just made absolutely no sense at all. And not one person I ran the problem by had ever heard of such a thing. Goes against anything we all know about cars and how they work. And no one, not a single soul ever mentioned or considered the oil filter or its bypass valve. We just take them for granted. A $3 item that is maybe the single cheapest and most often replaced consumeable item we use in our cars and we take for granted that they're anvil-like, completely bullet-proof. Well let me be the first to tell ya; it just aint so! They can and do go bad or can be bad from the factory. Sure it's a long shot and none of us is likely to ever hear of it again in out lifetime. But notice is hereby served.
and:
I think it somehow was assembled incorrectly or damaged/installed incorrectly in the manufacturing process and/or the equipment that installs the relief spring failed. Of course I can't prove it but there appears no way the spring in a good filter could malfunction if it ever functioned. My gut says manufacturing error at relief spring assembly or during installation of that assembly into the filter housing. I can't see how it could've worked when I put it in then later failed.
If my theory of high oil pressure is true I must also cling to the belief that heavier viscosity oils are gone thru quicker for the same reason. That thicker oil creates higher oil pressures and somewhow that puts more oil out the tailpipe either thru blowby or unburned oil that creeps past rings in the combustion process. 100psi oil pressure has GOT to be putting a lot of oil in places it was never intended or be or in places unable to cope with such pressure/quantities.
And a little more:
Oil filters are an in-line restrictor/reducer. Since our oil pressure is taken "aft" of the oil pressure we get a "filtered" reading which even on the best filtration systems is 35-45% less than actual or unfiltered pressure. Yes our oil pumps are high pressure. Even the cheapeast entry-level VW/Audi oil pumps are capable of pressures near 200psi if left unchecked/unfiltered. They are constant pressure pumps that if left unchecked will likely blow seals and gaskets if the pressures cannot be restricted/reduced. An oil filter is a great in-line pressure reducer. And while a dirty filter will create dramaticically lower oil pressures so will no filter create abnormally high pressures. And heavier viscosity oils compound/exacerbate the issue. The bypass valve is designed to bypass oil filtration during cold mornings when oil is thick to prevent ballooning and exploding of filter cannister. An oil filter cannot take 100+psi and will start to balloon/split/rupture at near 105psi. The bypass didn't create higher pressure. It merely allowed higher pressure due to no in-line filter media to restrict oil pressure.
But the biggest telling factor is a new filter is in place and obviously working. Excessive oil use is totally absent and so far with negligible oil useage. That in and of itself makes a far greater statement about the phenomenon than any explanation I ever could.
Any comments or opinions, especially on the thicker-oil-leading-to-increased-oil-consumption theory?
Also, gathering from the above, it seems save to say that it would not be a good idea to run this Audi engine without an oil filter, as oil pressure would be excessive.
[ June 26, 2004, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
[12v Development Discussion]
my oil use problem resolved or: some people have all the luck
Posted by UrS4 on 2004-06-25 11:31:02
as most of you know I went from over 3500 miles per qt of oil to using a quart almost every time I fueled up (1qt/270miles).
I even did leak-down and compression tests to trace it as well as larger diameter breather hoses with zero relief.
In desperation I decided to do an oil change and new filter on the off-hand chance that was causing it. Well, low and behold 300 miles later and not a single drop has been used. Looks like I'm back on course. I knew just a change in oil couldn't be responsible so today I dug the filter that was on the car out of the trash. It is a Mann OEM filter I purchase in case quantities. It has 870 miles on it since last oil change.
I dissected the filter this morning and found the issue immediately once it was cut apart and compared it to a new, never used Mann filter that I also cut open. Turns out the **** bypass/pressure relief valve was stuck in the open position and couldn't close on the one mounted in my car. This means I was running open oil recirculation with no filtration whatsoever for the last 870 miles but more importantly I was running well over 120psi oil pressure at anything past 3,000 RPM's and closer to 70psi at idle. Without restriction our oil pump is capable of generating over 200psi oil pressure. No wonder I've been using oil like a SOB! Gotta be a gazillion-to-1 longshot and I drew the short straw. I was stumped... completely, totally befuddled. I was utterly delighted when the problem disappeared after the most recent oil/filter change but I'm a LOT happier now knowing what the problem was!
You can't imagine the hours I've spent worrying/obsessing over this one. Just made absolutely no sense at all. And not one person I ran the problem by had ever heard of such a thing. Goes against anything we all know about cars and how they work. And no one, not a single soul ever mentioned or considered the oil filter or its bypass valve. We just take them for granted. A $3 item that is maybe the single cheapest and most often replaced consumeable item we use in our cars and we take for granted that they're anvil-like, completely bullet-proof. Well let me be the first to tell ya; it just aint so! They can and do go bad or can be bad from the factory. Sure it's a long shot and none of us is likely to ever hear of it again in out lifetime. But notice is hereby served.
and:
I think it somehow was assembled incorrectly or damaged/installed incorrectly in the manufacturing process and/or the equipment that installs the relief spring failed. Of course I can't prove it but there appears no way the spring in a good filter could malfunction if it ever functioned. My gut says manufacturing error at relief spring assembly or during installation of that assembly into the filter housing. I can't see how it could've worked when I put it in then later failed.
If my theory of high oil pressure is true I must also cling to the belief that heavier viscosity oils are gone thru quicker for the same reason. That thicker oil creates higher oil pressures and somewhow that puts more oil out the tailpipe either thru blowby or unburned oil that creeps past rings in the combustion process. 100psi oil pressure has GOT to be putting a lot of oil in places it was never intended or be or in places unable to cope with such pressure/quantities.
And a little more:
Oil filters are an in-line restrictor/reducer. Since our oil pressure is taken "aft" of the oil pressure we get a "filtered" reading which even on the best filtration systems is 35-45% less than actual or unfiltered pressure. Yes our oil pumps are high pressure. Even the cheapeast entry-level VW/Audi oil pumps are capable of pressures near 200psi if left unchecked/unfiltered. They are constant pressure pumps that if left unchecked will likely blow seals and gaskets if the pressures cannot be restricted/reduced. An oil filter is a great in-line pressure reducer. And while a dirty filter will create dramaticically lower oil pressures so will no filter create abnormally high pressures. And heavier viscosity oils compound/exacerbate the issue. The bypass valve is designed to bypass oil filtration during cold mornings when oil is thick to prevent ballooning and exploding of filter cannister. An oil filter cannot take 100+psi and will start to balloon/split/rupture at near 105psi. The bypass didn't create higher pressure. It merely allowed higher pressure due to no in-line filter media to restrict oil pressure.
But the biggest telling factor is a new filter is in place and obviously working. Excessive oil use is totally absent and so far with negligible oil useage. That in and of itself makes a far greater statement about the phenomenon than any explanation I ever could.
Any comments or opinions, especially on the thicker-oil-leading-to-increased-oil-consumption theory?
Also, gathering from the above, it seems save to say that it would not be a good idea to run this Audi engine without an oil filter, as oil pressure would be excessive.
[ June 26, 2004, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
