Bullet Photos

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
I'm very fond of .357sig. It's my go to carry gun( G32 Gen4) especially in the colder months. I love shooting the round, and I believe it is one of the absolute best handgun loads available. Sure it's expensive, but it feeds reliably, and it packs a punch with relatively low recoil.

If I'm not carrying 357 Sig I carry 9mm in my single stack Walther PPS.

I see no point in .40 anymore for me. I sold my Walther ppq.40 when I bought the .357 sig. I did buy a Glock 23 barrel in case I ever need/want to shoot .40s&w again.
I'm sure you've heard this before. You need a reloader. It gives you low cost access to all the great oddballs and expensive rounds.

 

[Itonlysmokesalit]

I would imagine the 5.7x28 is most useful in is original p90 configuration.

 

[billt460]

Remember the 5.7 was used by Nidal Hasan in the Ft. Hood shooting. He purchased that pistol after researching it, and discussing it with a person who owned one, and was very familiar with it. He also purchased along with it several extra magazines, and 3,000 rounds of SS-192 and SS-197SR ammunition. It was widely reported from several sources, that in the weeks leading up to the attack, Hasan visited an outdoor shooting range in Florence, Texas where he allegedly became adept at hitting silhouette targets at distances of up to 100 yards. He also equipped the pistol with 2 Lasermax sights. One red and one green.

So it's a fair statement to make that he selected the gun carefully, purchased enough ammunition to become reasonably proficient with it. And practiced with it heavily at long range before the shooting. This guy wanted to be effective, and score as many fatal hits as possible. In spite of that he killed 13 but wounded more than 30. That's not a very good hit to kill ratio for a man on such a mission. Almost 2/3rds of his victims survived.

Now you can bend and shape this incident any way you wish to. But the fact still remains it is one of the best real world performance examples to date we have of that weapon. Not gelatin blocks sitting on a table.

 

[hatt]

Most people shot with a handgun survive.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Try this example (jacket separation = failure).
You think 700 ft lbs of energy, 17.5 inches of penetration, and an expanded diameter of 0.7 inches is a failure? I'd rather have that than a perfectly symmetrical 9MM that penetrates 12.5 inches and expands to 0.75 inches with perfect expansion and no jacket separation. Ammo is used for effect. Not to make pretty little star shaped bullets.
No, what I think is that according to ALL of the standards used to test bullets jacket separation is a failure of the bullet. Call it and paint it whatever way you wish, but without standardized testing, it is all just guessing. Do I think that a 10MM is a manstopper? Sure, if you can hold onto it and actually hit what you are aiming at.


It's pedantic to call that bullet a "failure". It retained over 98% of its weight despite the beginning (not complete) jacket separation.

Further the bullet penetrated deeply after 4 layers of denim and the narrator kept discussing how large the wound channel was along that nearly 18" channel.

Finally, rapid fire and hitting things with a 10mm is a matter of training for most people. A G20 has more recoil than a G17, but less than the muzzle energy (twice that of a 9mm) would suggest.

For those who lack the hand strength, or the desire to train, with a G20, I would recommend a different caliber.

My wife, for example, has a couple of 9mm pistols. And she shoots them well.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Most people shot with a handgun survive.


The 5.7 adds depth to that statement.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Most people shot with a handgun survive.


The 5.7 adds depth to that statement.
Not really. You're drawing conclusions that the facts don't support. Some wounded were not hit by bullets at all. Most wounded were shot in arms, legs, shoulders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Most people shot with a handgun survive.


The 5.7 adds depth to that statement.


You are completely guessing and or assuming that statement!

There isn't enough confirmed data on 5.7x28mm shootings. Even in the Fort Hood shooting, the details such as each shot placement, autopsies, and other studies were never made very clear. The details like that almost never get fully released in most criminal shootings. The fort hood shooting would suggest the 5.7x28mm is pretty effective but hard to compare to more popular calibers such as 9, 40, 45 ETC. Either way, wikipedia is not the best source for such information.

 

[bubbatime]

I've always been a ballistics sponge. Reading, learning, and shooting gel blocks and pigs to see what works, what doesnt. The 5.7 didn't pan out. It's not a .22 Magnum, but you couldn't really tell the difference. Yes it can kill. Yes it is low recoil. SWAT found that they had to dump 5 to 8 of these things into people to get a behavior change. It is what it is.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I've always been a ballistics sponge. Reading, learning, and shooting gel blocks and pigs to see what works, what doesnt. The 5.7 didn't pan out. It's not a .22 Magnum, but you couldn't really tell the difference. Yes it can kill. Yes it is low recoil. SWAT found that they had to dump 5 to 8 of these things into people to get a behavior change. It is what it is.


I consider myself a ballistics studier too. I read and study as well as shooting ballistics media and pork shoulder in my own testing; including testing the 5.7x28mm several years ago. My conclusions of it were mostly positive, especially when used with high performance loadings, nothing FN or federal offers currently.

While I wouldn't say the platform is dead, It is not going to catch on with any agency that follows the FBI standards for duty ammunition. Why? Because the 5.7 rarely penetrates to 12" or greater. 8-10" are usually what it does so if that is not enough for you, I don't recommend it.

As for it taking 5 to 8, 5.7x28 rounds to change someone's behavior, that takes about a half second with a full auto p-90 and similar descriptions were given with the Mp5 when it was popular. It is simply a delay in full auto rounds on target and NOT full auto human central nervous system. When adrenalin is high and operators want a threat stopped immediately, it can seem like a lifetime between a burst of rounds on target and the bad guy actually dropping. I can tell you that from personal experience in the sand box. It is one of the many reasons why full auto fire weapons are falling out of favor for any type of CQB. Compared to a semi auto: You blow through ammo quickly, the threats do no necessarily stop any faster, training often takes longer and if stateside, the crime scene looks bad and is harder to explain; especially to the anti-police news media we have today.

I digress, Back to the 5.7x28, it has a small niche and has a following similar to 10mm. Neither rounds (5.7 or 10mm) have a wide usage with government agencies but for different reasons. Both are fairly expensive and not the easiest to find. They are both carried and used mostly by civilians who enjoy hunting or concealed carry with something that is different and unique. I don't see a resurgence of either one coming around any time soon and I don't want to get shot with either one. Tried to find some photos of 10mm and 5.7x28 side by side but I couldn't find any.

 

[Itonlysmokesalit]

Originally Posted By: AMC
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I've always been a ballistics sponge. Reading, learning, and shooting gel blocks and pigs to see what works, what doesnt. The 5.7 didn't pan out. It's not a .22 Magnum, but you couldn't really tell the difference. Yes it can kill. Yes it is low recoil. SWAT found that they had to dump 5 to 8 of these things into people to get a behavior change. It is what it is.


I consider myself a ballistics studier too. I read and study as well as shooting ballistics media and pork shoulder in my own testing; including testing the 5.7x28mm several years ago. My conclusions of it were mostly positive, especially when used with high performance loadings, nothing FN or federal offers currently.

While I wouldn't say the platform is dead, It is not going to catch on with any agency that follows the FBI standards for duty ammunition. Why? Because the 5.7 rarely penetrates to 12" or greater. 8-10" are usually what it does so if that is not enough for you, I don't recommend it.

As for it taking 5 to 8, 5.7x28 rounds to change someone's behavior, that takes about a half second with a full auto p-90 and similar descriptions were given with the Mp5 when it was popular. It is simply a delay in full auto rounds on target and NOT full auto human central nervous system. When adrenalin is high and operators want a threat stopped immediately, it can seem like a lifetime between a burst of rounds on target and the bad guy actually dropping. I can tell you that from personal experience in the sand box. It is one of the many reasons why full auto fire weapons are falling out of favor for any type of CQB. Compared to a semi auto: You blow through ammo quickly, the threats do no necessarily stop any faster, training often takes longer and if stateside, the crime scene looks bad and is harder to explain; especially to the anti-police news media we have today.

I digress, Back to the 5.7x28, it has a small niche and has a following similar to 10mm. Neither rounds (5.7 or 10mm) have a wide usage with government agencies but for different reasons. Both are fairly expensive and not the easiest to find. They are both carried and used mostly by civilians who enjoy hunting or concealed carry with something that is different and unique. I don't see a resurgence of either one coming around any time soon and I don't want to get shot with either one. Tried to find some photos of 10mm and 5.7x28 side by side but I couldn't find any.


The shallow penetration would be the biggest potential hang up with the 5.7. Im sure as any of you guys who hunt know, the penetration in a gel block will be about 20-30% deeper than in an animal. Give or take a little but thats been my experience.