Brake fluid change ?

[swampdodo]

Easy to do? Well, not any more...at least not as easy as it use to be. Use to be, you could bleed the brake by yourself with the right (no so expensive equipment) or have another person help you.

But now...on 'modern' vehicles, it requires a 'procedure' which can be unique to each make/model, and or you need special scan tool/PC/tablet to actuate the ABS pump to flush the system properly. Sort of like changing rear brake pads before the electronic parking brake came about.

On my 4runner, you can bleed/flush the front brakes fluid like you normally would...pump...hold...open the bleeder or use a pressure bleeder, etc. However, on the rear, you either have to have a special 'scan' tool on the OBDII to actuate the pump to bleed out the fluid...otherwise, you get nothing out. The alternate to this is turn on (but not crank) the ignition...bleed the fluid out...and repeat until flushed...it is a pain.

So, my suggestion is to have a 'shop' do it...and it you don't trust them, then you can do things like getting a dash cam, get some mechanics paint (to put around the bleeder screws) or find another shop.

 

[JHZR2]

Of course you should do it. Before it gets too wet…

 

[Rat407]

Yes, it is wise to get it done. The average person never does and most don't seem to have issues. At least it isn't posted online much. I do mine when I replace brake pads/shoes. No issues otherwise. My 2002 Silverado I did it once when I had it at 70k because I had to replace the left rear caliper. I used the ATE Super Blue when it was available. Now you can't get it. I didn't touch the brakes since and it had 200k when I sold it with the original front brake pads. They had some life left on them.

Not saying this is a good idea but for most, you will not have issues if left alone. Again, this is from several friends that I changed oil for and talked to them while doing so and found out that they never touched the brake fluid and some had over 300k on their vehicle. In short time. Like within 6yrs. They never stayed home, always on the road.

 

[benjy]

we are getting older + slower + depending on your WALLET + physical condition + tools DIY is a cheep option IMO + i enjoy DIY as well!! if your ABS corrodes due to lack of upkeep its $$$$$$$ for sure, less than a $20 job if you have the tools + ability

 

[vavavroom]

I cannot speak for your area or your personal experiences, but all of the established independent shops around here are within 20% of dealership prices. They are sometimes higher than the dealer because independent shops do not offer menu-pricing tactics for common maintenance items (e.g. brakes).

I certainly can confirm that. My independent mechanic is not less expensive than the dealer but more reliable and the service is more personalized. I don't go to the independent mechanic for his prices. I haven't seen rates under $150 - $175 an hour in years.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

$100 seems low. Maybe it is the norm in OH, but not around here:

View attachment 71939

I would be curious to know what their "exchange" procedure is, in detail. Do they simply "exchange" the fluid in the main reservoir with new fluid and call it good?...or do they also bleed each wheel, etc., to exchange ALL fluid in the system?

I think it would be smart to get the specifics.

Ed

 

[The Critic]

I would be curious to know what their "exchange" procedure is, in detail. Do they simply "exchange" the fluid in the main reservoir with new fluid and call it good?...or do they also bleed each wheel, etc., to exchange ALL fluid in the system?

I think it would be smart to get the specifics.

Ed

Exchange is just a marketing term. Brake Fluid Flush/Exchange is the same thing.



That dealer uses the MOC program.

 

[nthach]

On my 4runner, you can bleed/flush the front brakes fluid like you normally would...pump...hold...open the bleeder or use a pressure bleeder, etc. However, on the rear, you either have to have a special 'scan' tool on the OBDII to actuate the pump to bleed out the fluid...otherwise, you get nothing out. The alternate to this is turn on (but not crank) the ignition...bleed the fluid out...and repeat until flushed...it is a pain.

I just read up on that, it sounds a lot like a Prius or hybrid Camry/Highlander - use Techstream or similar tool to inhibit brake-by-wire, pull two relays and bleed the fronts as regular brakes(the scan tool is also cycling the linear solenoid valves in the brake actuator), then put the relays back in and have the brake actuator pump fluid for the rears. Except on Toyota hybrids, there’s another sequence to bleed the brake actuator and it’s supply line if the actuator was removed or replaced and another one if the stroke simulator was replaced.

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/maintenance-detailing/68750-tip-bleeding-brakes-4th-5th-gen.html

 

[nomas]

I just talked to Royal Nissan in Baton Rouge . $109.95 .

 

[ArPix]

I find dealer prices here vary greatly depending on which vehicle make you are talking about. For instance, GMC charges $89.95 for 8 qt. oil & filter change, $69.95 with a coupon. Volkswagen charges $119.95, apparently a special price, for a 5 qt. O & F. I don’t know which VWs require 5 qts or fewer but my 2008 Rabbit and my 2019 GTI used 6 qts.

 

[Trav]

2018 40k miles Under warranty . Bumper to bumper .

In your location every 2 years would be my time frame. In high humidity areas algae can also be an issue as well as the lowered boiling point and it is hard to get rid of.

 

[JimPghPA]

I have not done anything regarding brake fluid for longer than I would want to admit. But most likely will be replacing the brake fluid myself for my 2016 Honda CR-V every few years, for the I hope long time I will be using this vehicle. The dealer did it just before I bought it as part of the proper maintance for making the vehicle up to the standard of a Certified Pre-owned Honda.

From what I have seen on YouTube videos, the Motive power brake fluid flush probably is somewhat outdated and was a good system to use before vehicles had ABS. Now days reverse flush systems seem to be the best way to do that job. And Phoenix Systems reverse brake fluid flush kits seam to be the ones to buy for doing that job. Watch some YouTube videos on how to do it. Basically the ABS systems will allow free flow of fluid in the reverse direction ( from wheel cylinders to master revivors ). So if you do reverse flush ( of course from all 4 ) then you do not have to mess with trying to get the ABS system to cooperate.

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Hers the Brake fluid 101 basics on why it should be replaced:

The reason brake fluid should be changed more often now with modern vehicles with ABS is that almost always the heart of the ABS contains two sections, the electronics, and the hydraulic section that controls the pressure of the fluid sent to each of 4 wheel cylinders. That hydraulic section is almost always machined from a block of Aluminum. Aluminum is a good choice because it is light weight, and under decent conditions will not corrode. However, brake lines are made of metal that contains copper to make them easy to bend, and not so ridged that they break because of vibration and stresses seen in moving vehicles. Unfortunately, over time, a small amount of copper from the brake lines gets into the brake fluid. And unfortunately, brake fluid is very hydroscopic ( meaning it is able to pull water molecules right out of air and add them to the brake fluid ). These two bad properties of brake fluid were not that big of a problem when vehicles did not have ABS systems with Aluminum coming into contact with brake fluid. However, Aluminum and Copper are on the opposite ends of the electro-negativity chart. Which means you can make a great battery using Copper and Aluminum and an electrolyte between them. So add some ( a very small amount ) Copper to the Brake fluid, and add some ( a very small amount ) of water to the brake fluid, and then pass that mix through the Aluminum of the hydraulics of the ABS system and given enough time and enough Copper and enough water, you will eventually end up with an ABS system that is damaged to the point that it will no longer work correctly. And replacing that hunk of Aluminum with all the little passages and valves and motors and pistons in it, and connecting all the brake lines to it properly, and bleeding out all the air from all those sections, ain't cheap to say the least. Can you say bust out another thousand or two. So to avoid that problem, you can do one of two things. Change ( flush ) the brake fluid on a regular time bases. Or buy test strips and an electronic brake fluid water percent test pen and use the test strips to test how much Copper is in the brake fluid. And and use the electronic test pen to test how much water is in the brake fluid. And of course change ( flush ) the brake fluid if either of those gets too high, and in general also change the brake fluid once in a while, maybe at a little longer interval if you know for sure by testing it that both the copper concentration and water concentration are not too high.

 

[JimPghPA]

And hers the Brake fluid 101 on the different kinds of Brake Fluid:

Fore most vehicles the hydraulics of the brake system will use only one of the 4 following brake fluids. Dot 3, Dot 4, Dot 5.1, or Dot 5.

Dot 3, Dot 4 and Dot 5.1 are all made of a similar base ( usually from castor beans, though that may have changed some over the years that I might not be aware of ). However the thing to keep in mind in that these three are in the same family. Brake fluid in general is made to withstand fairly high temperatures and to flow well even when it is very cold. Dot 3 is commonly used in every day vehicles. And while it is not as good as Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 in its ability to withstand high temperatures it is good enough that it works in those applications. And while it is hydroscopic and will pull water molecules right out of the air, Dot 4 and Dot 5.1 that are more suitable for vehicles that have brake systems that get hotter, the higher temperature rated Dot 4 and Dot 5.1 brake fluids are even more hydroscopic than Dot 3 and therefore vehicles that use them require there brake fluid to be flushed more frequently, if the corrosion of parts in those systems is to be avoided.

So while it would give you an advantage in the ability of the level of heat your brake fluid could safely withstand if you put Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 fluid in a Dot 3 specked vehicle, if that vehicle did not need that added ability, in reality all you would do by using the higher temperature rated fluids would be to end up requiring the fluid to be flushed more often.

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Now Dot 5 is a whole other family of brake fluid, and is Silicon based. If you put Dot 5 in a Dot 3 or a Dot 4 or a Dot 5.1 brake fluid specked system, you will ruin the entire system. That kind of contamination can NOT be flushed out. It requires removing EVERY single component of the hydraulic brake system that the brake fluid comes in contact with that is contaminated. And replacing all of it. And boy that ain't cheap.

The same thing goes if you put Dot 3 or Dot 4 or Dot 5.1 brake fluid in a Dot 5 specked brake system. Replace everything that the fluid contaminated. Everything.

In other words that kind of screw-up is a major screw-up that cost major amounts of money and time. I do not want to think about ever having anything like that happen to anything I own, ever.

 

[BHopkins]

I just talked to Royal Nissan in Baton Rouge . $109.95 .

That sounds fair. Is that who you are going to go with?

 

[Traction]

I have all of the the tools, and methods to easily bleed brakes all by myself, including a OTC air powered vacuum bleeder, and a Motive pressure bleeder. But with 9 vehicles, with 6 being seldom driven, I just take the lazy way out, and at least suck out the reservoir and add new fluid whenever possible.

 

[JimPghPA]

BTW, I have bought and used the Pheonix test strips that test brake fluid for how much copper it has, and the other end of those strips also test antifreeze for the PH and concentration / freeze point. Always use a duel strip like that to test the brake fluid first so you do not risk getting any antifreeze into the brake fluid.

And I have bought and used the electronic test pen that test the percent of water contamination in the brake fluid.

My brake fluid is good to go for now. I'll check it again next year. I lent the test strips and pen out to a brother for his vehicles, and will lend them to others when I get them back. I figure the test strips will not keep forever, so I will use let others use them now while they are good, and buy some more next year.

Amazon sells both the test strips and test pen.

 

[The Critic]

From what I have seen on YouTube videos, the Motive power brake fluid flush probably is somewhat outdated and was a good system to use before vehicles had ABS. Now days reverse flush systems seem to be the best way to do that job. And Phoenix Systems reverse brake fluid flush kits seam to be the ones to buy for doing that job. Watch some YouTube videos on how to do it. Basically the ABS systems will allow free flow of fluid in the reverse direction ( from wheel cylinders to master revivors ). So if you do reverse flush ( of course from all 4 ) then you do not have to mess with trying to get the ABS system to cooperate.

Maybe from your research, but the factory service manuals would disagree with you.

 

[doitmyself]

I'm not going to do it myself . Just saying ..

Should I take offense to that comment?

 

[nomas]

That sounds fair. Is that who you are going to go with?

Probably . The dealer I normally use never returned my call today . That doesn't sit well . Royal is just as close to me anyway .

 

[JimPghPA]

Maybe from your research, but the factory service manuals would disagree with you.

I do not have access to details to back anything up, but my 2 cents worth of guess about that is that the dealership where the service manual would have it done at has the ability to use the OBD2 port to command the ABS to cooperate with doing a forward flush. And that is something my Blue Driver OBD2 port device will not allow me to control.

The reverse flush of the Pheonix systems takes advantage of brake systems in general being designed to allow free reverse flow. I will call Pheonix up and ask them if there reverse flush system replaces all the brake fluid in all areas including all of the areas of the ABS and the front to back proportion control valve if my vehicle has that.

Not trying to get into any argument here. You brought up a valid point, and I will confirm that the Pheonix reverse flush is an appropriate tool to use on my Honda CR-V before I purchase it. Thanks for the heads up.