Brake Dust & Quality
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Brake pads leave dust, the good ones do anyways. Sure, "low dust" ceramic pads can work for a light passenger car driven by a grandma, but throw them on a Suburban while towing and you have a recipe for some major fade.
The most heat resistant pad materials with high coefficients of friction will dust like crazy...they will also stop like crazy.
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
Leave it to J.D. Powers to marginalize themselves with such a moronic quality "category".
The most heat resistant pad materials with high coefficients of friction will dust like crazy...they will also stop like crazy.
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
Leave it to J.D. Powers to marginalize themselves with such a moronic quality "category".
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Originally Posted By: pzev
Brake pads leave dust, the good ones do anyways. Sure, "low dust" ceramic pads can work for a light passenger car driven by a grandma, but throw them on a Suburban while towing and you have a recipe for some major fade.
The most heat resistant pad materials with high coefficients of friction will dust like crazy...they will also stop like crazy.
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
Leave it to J.D. Powers to marginalize themselves with such a moronic quality "category".
+1
Does it stop good? Nothing else matters, within reason. Now if I have two pad sets that stop close enough to be called the same and one is lower dust, yeah, Ill buy the lower dust. But it is hard to find enough info about a given pad to get down to that.
Brake pads leave dust, the good ones do anyways. Sure, "low dust" ceramic pads can work for a light passenger car driven by a grandma, but throw them on a Suburban while towing and you have a recipe for some major fade.
The most heat resistant pad materials with high coefficients of friction will dust like crazy...they will also stop like crazy.
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
Leave it to J.D. Powers to marginalize themselves with such a moronic quality "category".
+1
Does it stop good? Nothing else matters, within reason. Now if I have two pad sets that stop close enough to be called the same and one is lower dust, yeah, Ill buy the lower dust. But it is hard to find enough info about a given pad to get down to that.
Originally Posted By: pzev
. . .
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
. . .
And if you own a G35, that's exactly what you'll have to do. I too want the stopping ability, but that got really old, really fast. If I so much as comtemplated slowing down, those wheels would instantly turn black.
Another thing to like about the hybrids. My Camry's friction brakes do so little of the stopping, the fronts look almost as good as the rears, for weeks at a time. Yes, I should wash it more often...
. . .
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
. . .
And if you own a G35, that's exactly what you'll have to do. I too want the stopping ability, but that got really old, really fast. If I so much as comtemplated slowing down, those wheels would instantly turn black.
Another thing to like about the hybrids. My Camry's friction brakes do so little of the stopping, the fronts look almost as good as the rears, for weeks at a time. Yes, I should wash it more often...
If the general public, the press...somebody...actually examined the various JDP surveys and applied critical thinking to them, their value would fall precipitously.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: pzev
. . .
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
. . .
And if you own a G35, that's exactly what you'll have to do. I too want the stopping ability, but that got really old, really fast. If I so much as comtemplated slowing down, those wheels would instantly turn black.
Another thing to like about the hybrids. My Camry's friction brakes do so little of the stopping, the fronts look almost as good as the rears, for weeks at a time. Yes, I should wash it more often...
May have more to do with the pad formulation than regenerative braking. My 02 never left any dust, front or back.
Originally Posted By: pzev
. . .
I would GLADLY have to wipe my wheels down every day then to not be able to stop.
. . .
And if you own a G35, that's exactly what you'll have to do. I too want the stopping ability, but that got really old, really fast. If I so much as comtemplated slowing down, those wheels would instantly turn black.
Another thing to like about the hybrids. My Camry's friction brakes do so little of the stopping, the fronts look almost as good as the rears, for weeks at a time. Yes, I should wash it more often...
May have more to do with the pad formulation than regenerative braking. My 02 never left any dust, front or back.
Originally Posted By: Jonny Z
. . .
May have more to do with the pad formulation than regenerative braking. My 02 never left any dust, front or back.
But remember what "regenerative braking" actually is. All "normal" braking above 7 mph is performed by the motor-generators in generator mode. In this mode, the brake pads NEVER touch the rotors (EDIT: yes, I understand that the "rest" postion of the pads has them in "slight" contact with the rotors). The work the MGs do converting the car's kinetic energy into electrical energy (which can then be stored in the traction battery) IS what slows/stops the car, for the most part.
The exceptions are two: 1) once the car's speed decays below 7 mph, the old-style friction brakes take over to finish the stop; and 2) if you jab the brake pedal hard enough to convince the ECU that you intend to perform an EMERGENCY STOP, it will command an old-school, friction-based deceleration to full stop.
As a side note, some folks find the brakes on the HSD cars "grabby". I just read a magazine review that said as much. But what most folks don't understand is that in an HSD car, when you hit ~7 mph, you're switching from one braking mechanism to a totally different one. I can feel it in both the Prius and the Camry. I don't find it objectionable. Once you adjust to it, it disappears in to the noise. No big deal -- once you know the car, you instinctively ease off the pedal a tad as you decel through 10 mph or so. Once understood, these cars can be driven as smoothly as any Lexus.
. . .
May have more to do with the pad formulation than regenerative braking. My 02 never left any dust, front or back.
But remember what "regenerative braking" actually is. All "normal" braking above 7 mph is performed by the motor-generators in generator mode. In this mode, the brake pads NEVER touch the rotors (EDIT: yes, I understand that the "rest" postion of the pads has them in "slight" contact with the rotors). The work the MGs do converting the car's kinetic energy into electrical energy (which can then be stored in the traction battery) IS what slows/stops the car, for the most part.
The exceptions are two: 1) once the car's speed decays below 7 mph, the old-style friction brakes take over to finish the stop; and 2) if you jab the brake pedal hard enough to convince the ECU that you intend to perform an EMERGENCY STOP, it will command an old-school, friction-based deceleration to full stop.
As a side note, some folks find the brakes on the HSD cars "grabby". I just read a magazine review that said as much. But what most folks don't understand is that in an HSD car, when you hit ~7 mph, you're switching from one braking mechanism to a totally different one. I can feel it in both the Prius and the Camry. I don't find it objectionable. Once you adjust to it, it disappears in to the noise. No big deal -- once you know the car, you instinctively ease off the pedal a tad as you decel through 10 mph or so. Once understood, these cars can be driven as smoothly as any Lexus.
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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Once understood, these cars can be driven as smoothly as any Lexus.
Particularly those with the same hybrid system...
Once understood, these cars can be driven as smoothly as any Lexus.
Particularly those with the same hybrid system...
I've run both ceramic pads and carbon metallic pads, and, by far, carbon metallic pads make much more of a mess than ceramic pads. The trade off is typically reduced stopping ability and premature rotor warping, particularly on cars with automatic transmissions.
I don't think many people fully understand what JD Power's IQS really is. IQS includes both actual problems and "perceived" problems. Anybody involved with an automaker understands that they are one in the same. A perceived problem is still a real problem. Is a perceived problem a *true* problem using tradiational "quality" metrics? Maybe not. It is still a customer dissatisfier and that is the true intention of the study.
Take a Dodge truck and a Chevrolet truck. Both stop about the same, so there's no huge brakeing performance difference. The Dodge truck leaves tons of dust all over the wheels and the Chevrolet doesn't. If I own a Dodge truck, I'm gonna be a bit perturbed that Chevrolet owners get to drive around in a nice clean truck and Dodge can't seem to figure out how make brakes that don't dust.
This is, BTW, a very real example. Chrysler has had huge IQS hits on brake dust for their trucks in the past, where GM and Ford have had much fewer. Who's doing their braking systems right and who hasn't got it quite figure out yet?
Take a Dodge truck and a Chevrolet truck. Both stop about the same, so there's no huge brakeing performance difference. The Dodge truck leaves tons of dust all over the wheels and the Chevrolet doesn't. If I own a Dodge truck, I'm gonna be a bit perturbed that Chevrolet owners get to drive around in a nice clean truck and Dodge can't seem to figure out how make brakes that don't dust.
This is, BTW, a very real example. Chrysler has had huge IQS hits on brake dust for their trucks in the past, where GM and Ford have had much fewer. Who's doing their braking systems right and who hasn't got it quite figure out yet?
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