Brad Penn/Redline 20W-50, 1,000/1,282 miles, P 911

[rickdm]

Two oil analysis, both done at a little over 1,000 miles on a 1987 911 used mostly for drivers education events on the track + the driving back and forth. Similar driving for both. The Redline had half a bottle of GM EOS added with about 100 miles to go, so I don't think it affected the wear numbers, but skewed the ZDDP. The Redline ran about 10 degrees cooler than the Brad Penn at the track. I have changed back to Redline, and may try Amsoil next to see if I can get the wear metals down. ___________ BP ___ RL ALUMINUM ___ 4___ 3 CHROMIUM ___ 5 ___ 2 IRON ___ 27 ___ 20 COPPER ___ 12 ___ 8 LEAD ___ 44 ___ 216 TIN ___ 0 ___ 0 MOLYBDENUM ___ 48 ___ 398 NICKEL ___ 2 ___ 3 MANGANESE ___ 0 ___ 0 SILVER ___ 1 ___ 0 TITANIUM ___ 0 ___ 0 POTASSIUM ___ 0 ___ 1 BORON ___ 14 ___ 65 SILICON ___ 9 ___ 13 SODIUM ___ 322 ___ 53 CALCIUM ___ 1658 ___ 2656 MAGNESIUM ___ 557 ___ 67 PHOSPHORUS ___ 1016 ___ 1329 ZINC ___ 1319 ___ 1550 BARIUM ___ 0 ___ 1 SUS Viscosity @ 210°F ___ 85.5 ___ 95.8 cSt Viscosity @ 100°C ___ 16.89___19.36 Flashpoint in °F ___ 385 ___ 410 BP:Thanks for the note about the track time. Universal averages show typical wear levels for a Porsche 3.2L after about 2,800 (street) miles on the oil. The highlighted metals show excess wear in the upper end (chrome, iron) as well as the bearings (copper, lead). These readings may be attributed to the track time as racing is harder on an engine than street driving. Or maybe something else is going on. Either way, shorter oil changes might help. The trace of fuel is not a problem. No other contaminants found. Try 750-1,000 miles next time. Caution: poor wear! REDLINE: The track events are one reason for the high iron, from steel parts. It's due to the stress the engine endures. That's why it was good that you changed this oil to get rid of those excess metals. The high lead is from leaded (racing) gasoline - not from bearings. Redline 20W/50 starts out with ~25 ppm of sodium and ~12 ppm of silicon as additive plus a lot of moly. They may be using more sodium now given the amount we found in your oil. That additive will mask sodium from coolant if your engine isn't air-cooled. Suggest 500-mile oil changes to keep iron down. rickdm

 

[aquariuscsm]

There`s a uoa here somewhere from a raced 3000GT where he used Tection 15W40. Is that a dino oil? His report showed no wear metals at all.

 

[Johnny248]

I'd like to see that

 

[addyguy]

The lead in both reports is scewed b/c of race gas. Other metals aren't good for 1k miles. A 15W-40 HDEO, or a 15W-40 HDEO syn-blend might be a good idea. If you try Amsoil, would you try the new 'Dominator' Race oils, probably the RD 50?

 

[rickdm]

I was thinking I would just use the 20W-50. I think it has very good ZDDP numbers. rickdm

 

[JohnBrowning]

Try Redline 5W40 or 10W40!!! I think that the 20W50 is not doing you any good since this is driver ED racing.......Meaning that the car is not doing 100laps all out. It is doing 10 laps then pitting for a debrief and another students gets in and does 10 laps and a debrief etc?????Is my above guess pretty accurate? If so the 20W50 is a liability until it the oil is at full operating temp. Every time the car is idled down in the pits or shut down th oil cools down again and again etc..... A lighter weight of of oil might do better. Keep in mind that Redline 5W40 and 10W40 have really good HTHS rating that exceed what a dino 20W50 would have.Another alternative would be NEO they use a diester base stock like Amsoil originally used. The reason I do not use them or recomend them is because of the lead they use as an additive in their oil. For those not using leaded fuel already it is just another thing to get in the way of learning to read a UOA but it is an excellent product from a protection standpoint. You also have Motul 300V in 40Wt.'s and VP Racing makes a 20W50 I believe that is blended for them by Torco last I checked! Personally I was never impressed with Amsoil 20W50 back int he late 1980's I often found that Mobil-1 15W50 worked better then Amsoil 20W50 Racing on many of the car's I was tuning for hish speed driving on the Autobahn. While not strikly racing it is close and these car's and to run the same oil for a while they where not dropping oil every 1000 miles! They might make a Düsseldorf run in middle of the night then the next day they might need to go get groceries!!!LOL

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

There`s a uoa here somewhere from a raced 3000GT where he used Tection 15W40. Is that a dino oil? His report showed no wear metals at all.

HDEOS are some of the best protecting oild on the market bar none.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi, rickdm - I agree with JB's comments on your UOAs. Nothing sinister there really. The Porsche Factory's TISBs recommend a 5W-40 (or 0W-40) synthetic for your engine If this is "not your thing" then I would consider using a good quality HDEO 15W-40 lubricant (Shell, Delvac, Delo etc) More viscous lubricants spend more time in the ring pack area which can lead to wear and higher oil temperatures which result in premature oxidation The Porsche Factory uses 15W-40 in their own older engines back into the 1960s-1970s

 

[jaj]

Doug Any wisdom you can pass on regarding the "the ZDDP is too low in M1 0w-40" issue with regards air-cooled 993 engines? I gentleman I work with is a bit spooked with the internet hype. My "who's done more research on this than the Porsche factory" response didn't carry a lot of weight. Thanks jaj

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi, jaj - All I can add is that Porsche still use it WW. The enthusiasts I spent time with swear by the 0W-40 viscosity. So do the service points - even in Stuttgart M1 0W-40 does not live alone on ZDDP levels - the overall formulation is the trick. On the Approved List about 2/3 of the viscosities are 5W-50 - the balance are 0W-40. One 5W-50 is there too M1 At a recent Technical meeting the statement was made that the respondents could not recall a lubricant related engine failure. And Porsche's rubbish bin are not filled with cams and things!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi, jaj - There is an error in my last Post It reads: "On the Approved List about 2/3 of the viscosities are 5W-50 - the balance are 0W-40." This should read: On the Approved List about 2/3 of the viscosities are 5W-40 - the balance are 0W-40. Sorry..................

 

[rickdm]

Thanks for the comments. I think the term 'drivers education' is a bit misleading (it keeps the insurance companies happy). I am running 25 minute sessions in a car with full race suspension, tires, and safety equipment at about mid-pack race qualifying pace. It is not the total thrashing of a race, but pretty hard use. It may be that it is not going to get much better. If I change the oil after 1,000 miles and see an iron ppm of 20, will I be better off changing the oil after 500 miles and seeing a ppm of 10? The advice on the lighter oil may be sound, but I don't know any air-cooled Porsche racers in our region who run anything less than a 50 weight oil. The guys running the water-cooled engines are using the 0W-40 weight oil. I am very careful with getting the oil up to temperature, and do not exceed 4,000rpms until my oil is over 180 degrees. I do feel that the Redline will give me better flow at lower temperatures the the BP. Perhaps something in the 5W-50 range? Thanks, rickdm

 

[saaber1]

I would stick with redline on the thick side. That real world 10 degree drop in temps. cannot be ignored. I know Barkerman said pretty much all the guys who track their Porsches that come to his shop use redline:

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

Time for an oil change on my air-cooled Porsche 911 and 15W50 is what they are calling for. Can anyone comment on the relative merits of Redline vs M1 in this viscosity range? The car will see high oil temps on the track. Thanks

Originally Posted By: BarkerMan

We have used Red Line in exactly your application and over the years with good results. No one in the serious racing crowd that has dyno engine work done here will touch Mobil 1 for such applications although several Cup racers that use RL in their race car use M1 in their new Porsche. There attitude is that M1 in on the approved list and they don't want the problems of using a non-listed oil because of the warranty. M1 is though to be good enough for street work but they use RL for serious stuff.

The combo of shear stable polar base oils, high ZDDP, and moly seems to be just what the doctor ordered. Also the POE basestocks and Moly may be producing increased lubricity which may account for the drop in temps: "2) Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications." -from an excellent article on esters: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...994#Post1252272 And from a similar great article by Tom NJ on esters FYI: http://www.diolube.com/ESTERS%20IN%20SYNTHETIC%20LUBRICANTS.htm "Polyol esters can extend the high temperature operating range of a lubricant by as much as 50 - 100°C due to their superior stability and low volatility. They are also renowned for their film strength and increased lubricity which is useful in reducing energy consumption in many applications. The only downside of polyol esters compared to diesters is their higher price; they are generally 20 - 70% higher on a wholesale basis. The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 30 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -54°C, pump readily at -40°C, and withstand sump temperature approaching 200°C with drain intervals measured in years. Only polyol esters have been found to satisfy this demanding application and incorporating even small amounts of diesters or PAOs will cause the lubricant to fail vital specifications."

 

[oliver88]

i race a 944 and a 964 cup in PCA and NASA events...I have run Redline 10w40 for 10+ race hours and it looks fine for continued use...The comments about a 20w50 being too heavy are correct IMHO...never had real good results running a 20w50 in either car...The 40 weights always gave me a better looking UOA. I would have no problem using the M1 0w40 either...it is the factory fill in the new cup cars and the RS Spyder...saw them putting a quart of it in the Spyder at Mid-Ohio.