Bombardier 400

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Stall recovery was one of the things mentioned in the "Flying Cheap" investigation on Frontline. And you're right that the procedure was part of the problem...but more specfically, the problem in the procedure is that it is a recovery from a stall warning, not a real stall. Most transport category airplanes and airliners have stall warning at much lower AOA than actual stall...so at that AOA, you can fly out by just increasing power and maintaining altitude.

But at higher AOA, like the Colgan crew experienced, you often have to lower AOA to fly the plane again. The dramatically increased induced drag of very high AOA can be too much for the engines to overcome and lowering AOA is required to regain control....but that wasn't the "specified" procedure in the case of 3407...and the crew didn't recognize their actual situation...and didn't know how to handle an actual stall...
 
I would think that anyone who's soloed a 172 would understand the need to lower the nose, or to at least stop pulling back, but maybe not.
Don't most aircraft give a noticeable buffet at stall?
Without regard to AOA indication, wouldn't the crew have felt the stall?
OTOH, the experienced Air France crew didn't recognize that they'd stalled the wing either.
 
The Q400 will almost recover itself from a full stall by going to full power alone as it has over 5000 hp available on each side. But if you look at the NTSB video from the flight data recorder (available on YouTube) you'll see that the accident aircraft reached more than 20 degree nose up attitude; that would require a lowering of the nose. Not a good place to be in a 65000 lb airplane at 1400 feet above ground level.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Don't most aircraft give a noticeable buffet at stall?


I can only speak for the CRJ and most jets, but, we will get the shaker or pusher before a full stall. Maybe next time in the sim, i'll turn off the stall protection and try to get to a full stall and see what happens.
 
Many aircraft have noticeable buffet at stall...but many do not...

One of the reasons that there is aerodynamic twist in wings (change in the mean chord angle along the length of the wing) is so that the wing root stalls first and allows the wing tips (and therefor, ailerons) to remain unstalled when that buffet happens so that roll control is still available during the early parts of the stall.

A wing will always stall at the same AOA - so, depending on load factor ("G"), density altitude, etc. the airspeed at which that occurs might be very, very different.

In airliners, and in Cessnas, pilots never really fly into deep stall, they get to buffet, in which part of the wing has stalled, and then fly out. In a lower powered airplane (Cessna) this requires lowering the nose in addition to power. In a better powered airplane (e.g. Q-400) you can simply power out.

But in a truly deep stall, all the power in the world can't get you out...the F-14, as an example, did not have a well-defined stall...at 10 units (close enough to call them degrees), the wing would buffet, just a bit, but you could still fly the airplane (with spoiler and differential tailplane for roll control)...at 15 units, the stall was worse, but you could still roll and power out. 15 Degrees AOA, by the way, is well above where most airplanes stall.

When you got up to 25 degrees, the buffet was similar, the power required was far greater and roll control was degraded.

But the big tailplanes of the Tomcat, which were sized to handle supersonic trim changes (another topic for another day) could take the jet well past 30 degrees AOA. Pull back on the stick and you could peg the AOA at 30 (it was closer to 60 actual) and the airspeed would drop to zero. You would then be well and fully stalled. Select max Afterburner, and all 50,000+ lbs of thrust would not break the stall (that's roughly 100,000 HP, but who's counting)...the plane would descend, in full AB, with zero airspeed, at over 10,000 FPM...

You had to fly the jet out, breaking (lowering) the AOA to allow the wings (and fuselage to some extent, but again, another story)to fly again - and the power would help, but it took a change in AOA to break the stall.

Both the Colgan flight and the AF 447 crew were in deep stall through pilot action - pulling back on the yoke/stick. In the AF case, that was the trained procedure, and it worked when the jet was in normal law, which limited AOA. However, AF 447 was in alternate law due to the airspeed sensor failures, so the pilot was not commanding optimum AOA with full back stick, as he thought he was, he was commanding max elevator deflection, and therefor, max AOA, so the jet never recovered. In the case of Colgan, the pilot pulled back to 20 degrees nose high, well beyond stall AOA, even with flaps down, and the roll control went away as the entire wing stalled...and all the power was useless in recovery from a deep stall...
 
Okay, but even having lost roll control, didn't the doomed Bombadier pilots still have pitch authority?
At what point was it too late for the crew to recover, given that the aircraft would have been at a high rate of descent and there wasn't much altitude to work with?
Or is it simply a case where if the crew stalled the wing at ~1400' AGL, there could be no recovery?
 
You can recover from a gentle stall at that altitude...but a deep stall, where the plane rolls off to one side...you have no options left...

This captain pulled the nose up to nearly 30 degrees...then the plane pitched 40+ degrees nose down (it was doomed at that point)... Before rolling 45 degrees left, and then 105 degrees right.

The loss of roll control includes loss of roll stability....

I recommend reading, cover to cover, "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators"....stability, adverse yaw, proverse roll, coefficient of lift, induced drag...all factors in this discussion...
 
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The crew also never increased the power to full; if they had done that early enough the crash would not have happened.
 
Take a look at Pinnacle flight 3701..... 2 guys wanted to joined the "410" club. They stalled the RJ at 41,000 ft, flamed out both engine.
 
Both engines flamed out, then core locked from thermal shock so they were unable to be restarted.

They were both killed when the jet crashed, quite a while later.

Fortunately, no passengers or other crew were on board... Only the 2 guys who decided to exceed the flight manual limits...
 
Did they exceed the certification limits of the machine?
I thought that the CRJ had a service ceiling of 41K.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Did they exceed the certification limits of the machine?
I thought that the CRJ had a service ceiling of 41K.


Although the plane was certified to that altitude, they violated company procedures which did not allow a climb to that altitude. The company procedures IIRC were due to the possibility of losing an engine at 410.

Then, they failed another judgement test when their first engine failed and they didn't descend.

Then, after their numerous failed restart attempts, they passed up several suitable airports where they could have landed.
 
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