BMW N54 Twin Turbo

[jesbo]

JAG....

Thanks for updating. I forgot to come back and update this thread. UOA was pretty acceptable with GC. I'm in a bit of a quandry though. BMW replaced the GC with the dealer supplied BMW 5W30 Synthetic as an annual oil change under maintenance. They did not set the service interval, so they will again be changing the oil (for free) in about 5K miles when the service indicator says it's time for the real change. So unless I supply them with a fill of GC, I'm now on the BMW oil. Probably not a big deal since the OCI will be so short (5K vs. 15K).

 

[d00df00d]

The BMW oil is good stuff. Don't fret having it instead of GC.

 

[jesbo]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The BMW oil is good stuff. Don't fret having it instead of GC.


Specially if it gets changed out again in 5K miles.

Of particular note, though... the GC did not show any serious signs of fuel dilution after 6K miles, so it would appear that my engine's fuel system (HPFP, injectors, etc.) is operating nicely. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it stays that way.

 

[d00df00d]

And its PCV system.

Here's hoping for continued success! Keep us informed!

 

[JHZR2]

Ill be looking at the motul 8100 X-clean CS3 5w-40 if/when I get a 135i... It is purpose designed for DI engines...

RLI will also be high on my list...

 

[The Critic]

I understand the N54 engine is quite different than your normal in-line six. However, I am not convinced that the amount of time, money and thought that all of you have put into maintaining this engine is truly necessary. I think as long as you used the BMW 5w-30 or another LL-01 approved engine oil and changed it every 7500 miles or so, engine life will not be an issue.

Of course, maybe the engine will last longer if you were a perfectionist. But for most people, as long as they changed the oil once in-between the recommended interval, I doubt that there will be any serious problems.

Heck, if I owned a BMW with a NA in-line six, I would probably just follow the CBS and not worry about doing more frequent changes.

 

[JHZR2]

well, high oil temperature and fuel dilution is something that set Terry and RI_RS4 off for a reason... Only UOA can tell for certain if for the "everyday" user, chasing earlier oil changes and special oils is justified.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
well, high oil temperature and fuel dilution is something that set Terry and RI_RS4 off for a reason... Only UOA can tell for certain if for the "everyday" user, chasing earlier oil changes and special oils is justified.

No offense intended, but recently, I have been questioning Terry's ability to provide sound advice in these situations.

Has Terry worked with OEMs? Does he have experience in that area? Based on conversations with OEM engineers, I have discovered that OEMs do large-scale testing to arrive at their recommendations. Someone like Terry would not have access to such resources.

Just raising some concerns that I feel, are legitimate.

 

[benjamming]

Yep, OEM large-scale testing is always spot on!

What in particular have you been questioning?

 

[d00df00d]

The OEMs are wrong sometimes.

That doesn't mean they're wrong frequently.

It also doesn't mean Terry is right.

Hence, The Critic's honest questions.

 

[benjamming]

Oh, completely understood. Being skeptical is a good thing! Critical thinking is a lost "art" for way too many.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
Critical thinking is a lost "art" for way too many.

Indeed!

 

[cosynthetics]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
I understand the N54 engine is quite different than your normal in-line six. However, I am not convinced that the amount of time, money and thought that all of you have put into maintaining this engine is truly necessary. I think as long as you used the BMW 5w-30 or another LL-01 approved engine oil and changed it every 7500 miles or so, engine life will not be an issue.

Of course, maybe the engine will last longer if you were a perfectionist. But for most people, as long as they changed the oil once in-between the recommended interval, I doubt that there will be any serious problems.

Heck, if I owned a BMW with a NA in-line six, I would probably just follow the CBS and not worry about doing more frequent changes.


Agreed. There just weren't enough oils tested to state that RLI was the only alternative. I'm sure there are plenty that will do fine, RLI is just one.

The old Dyson website had RLI stuff on it lending me to believe Terry is less than unbiased.

Anyone who looked at the old RS4 UOAs can tell you that not all oils did poorly. Some of them did just as good (or better) than RLI, but the oils are unknown as they are just labeled numerically.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: cosynthetics
Anyone who looked at the old RS4 UOAs can tell you that not all oils did poorly. Some of them did just as good (or better) than RLI, but the oils are unknown as they are just labeled numerically.

Link? I know there were some early charts with unlabeled oils, but the later ones I've seen were labeled. Plus, to the best of my memory, all the charts I've seen had RLI beating everything by a comfortable (though not always huge) margin on most of the tests.

 

[cosynthetics]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: cosynthetics
Anyone who looked at the old RS4 UOAs can tell you that not all oils did poorly. Some of them did just as good (or better) than RLI, but the oils are unknown as they are just labeled numerically.

Link? I know there were some early charts with unlabeled oils, but the later ones I've seen were labeled. Plus, to the best of my memory, all the charts I've seen had RLI beating everything by a comfortable (though not always huge) margin on most of the tests.


I'll dig around and see if I still have them. This was from when the threads were first started. I did some research and reading but figured out it was far from a perfect test. There were several oils that did just as good as RLI but no one mentioned them. I got tired of all the hoopla around the RLI so I left the thread. Too much unsubstantiated opinions trying to make RLI look like the best. Sorry, I'm not drinking the Koolaid.

 

[RI_RS4]

Here's the most recent chart of results on the RS4 for Fe

 

[RI_RS4]

Critic

Your questions would be best directed to Terry himself. I'm wondering on what scientific basis you question his advice?

I am aware that Terry has worked in the past with auto manufacturers, racing teams, and motor oil companies. He does have 30 years of experience as an independent tribologist, and he's involved in some of the ASTM's standardization committees.

As for the N54 engine, I am aware that some engines are grenading due to oil failure at high temperatures, and some are experiencing intake valve deposit issues.

The Audi/VW DI engines are all starting to experience intake valve deposit issues.

These issues were predicted 2 years ago by Terry, which is why he and I went searching for an oil that would withstand massive fuel dilution. He recommends biosyn, because we had a hand in developing the 5w40 version as a custom blend formulated for Audi DI engines. IN testing it, and other Biosyn oils, he found that it has some very advanced technology that is not available in other oils.

I am quite sure that Terry has no legal or financial interest in RLI, nor do I. They are recommended, because they have unique motor oil chemistry that is beneficial for some issues, like high fuel dilution.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Here's the most recent chart of results on the RS4 for Fe


It would be nice to have some more UOAs for >20k mile non-RenLube users. I know the folks contributing to the database probably converted to RLI and kept updating their data (which is great) and that is why almost all data is RLI beyond 20k, but finding some more higher mileage non-RLI UOAs would help the database I think. I wonder if those UOAs exist?

 

[buster]

Have their been any tear downs or visual inspections of engine internals?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
No offense intended, but recently, I have been questioning Terry's ability to provide sound advice in these situations.

Has Terry worked with OEMs? Does he have experience in that area? Based on conversations with OEM engineers, I have discovered that OEMs do large-scale testing to arrive at their recommendations. Someone like Terry would not have access to such resources.

Just raising some concerns that I feel, are legitimate.


No offense taken, but I have, for example, been well exposed to the R&D that chevron has done on various engine classes, fleets, etc., and found it to be outstanding. The oil companies use guys like Terry to help optimize formulations to meet needs. I have not seen a specific specification for an oil for an N54, maybe there is one for the Audi??? And, I don't think that lab engineering really tells it all. There was a good push for new specs for, say, ford and Honda 5w-20 oils, Honda HTO-06 turbo oils, etc., but I dont think that, say, toyota, found issue with API SL oils when they produced an abundance of sludgemonsters, or Honda found an issue with their ATF when they produced 5-sp ATs that couldnt last 60k miles.

Meanwhile oil companies run rigorous tests on their and competitive oils. Chevron does this to a great amount, and it is excellent to see how things rack and stack. There are resources at the large oil companies, and I'd venture to guess that someone like Terry has access to such analytical tools and equipment via various contract labs that exist in nearly any industrial area.

I'm not saying that your issues arent justified... I think they are, but someone like Terry has obviously seen a lot more than you and I, and has noted issues that could warrant flagging. Doing the work, making the formulation, etc. isnt for the faint of heart, but a lot of this stuff is available to do... and with data, can be validated. Im not supporting RLI, Terry, RI_RS4, etc., nor am I belittling them - they had data, made a good faith effort to adjust their lubes to meet the issue, and did it semi-successfully. I don't think there is any less a set of issues on the N54 given comments of oil overheating, lack of track time due to limp-home mode being induced, etc. If everyday users are documenting such things, there obviously are issues that should be addressed...