BMW LL17FE, BMW LL14FE, BMW factory oil

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From Left to right. BMW LL17FE, BMW LL14LE, BMW factory oil
Both 2 last are the BMW dealer fills. I have 5K OCI in between the dealers services
Well, I am pretty sure it was BMW oil, as I have been told many times the dealer is using only BMW OEM oil and couple people who I know personally confirmed it.

TAN is insanely high. If this oil is so acidic after 5K miles, it is a mystery how it can last BMW recommend OCI -10-11K miles.
Might be mistake on BS part
 

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sorry there was a typo
BMW LL17FE, BMW LL14FE, BMW factory oil - 2018 BMW 330i xdrive - 5K OCI
Can not edit the title for some reason
 
@mightymousetech can comment on what's probably in the bulk tank, my understanding is that more recently it's a BMW approved Castrol product.

The big drop in calcium between the first two and this most recent fill is interesting. Magnesium is way up, pointing to a significantly different formulation. FF clearly had a lot more moly in it than the service fills. Flash Point implies very little fuel, which is nice to see.

Would be interesting to know what the virgin KV100 of this product is, as it's now an XW-16, while the FF ended up as an XW-12. Given the very little fuel present, this is mechanical shear.
 
@mightymousetech can comment on what's probably in the bulk tank, my understanding is that more recently it's a BMW approved Castrol product.

The big drop in calcium between the first two and this most recent fill is interesting. Magnesium is way up, pointing to a significantly different formulation. FF clearly had a lot more moly in it than the service fills. Flash Point implies very little fuel, which is nice to see.

Would be interesting to know what the virgin KV100 of this product is, as it's now an XW-16, while the FF ended up as an XW-12. Given the very little fuel present, this is mechanical shear.
Thank you
My understanding the drop in calcium is a common things across many oil brands now to fight LSPI and meet GF-6A
 
Thank you
My understanding the drop in calcium is a common things across many oil brands now to fight LSPI and meet GF-6A
Before GF-6, it was a focus of the Dexos standard. GM worked with the oil and additive manufacturers and Infineum has put out several papers on the subject. Calcium is definitely a trigger, magnesium doesn't seem to be. But other formulation changes can also quench that effect. High levels of ZDDP for example, seem to stop calcium from promoting LSPI. This is why phosphorous retention is a "thing" now with newer formulations.

Daimler had an LSPI test on the 2016 version of the OE specs I shared in the other thread, though it wasn't ratified until 2018.
 
From Left to right. BMW LL17FE, BMW LL14LE, BMW factory oil
Both 2 last are the BMW dealer fills. I have 5K OCI in between the dealers services
Well, I am pretty sure it was BMW oil, as I have been told many times the dealer is using only BMW OEM oil and couple people who I know personally confirmed it.

TAN is insanely high. If this oil is so acidic after 5K miles, it is a mystery how it can last BMW recommend OCI -10-11K miles.
Might be mistake on BS part
Without knowing the base TAN you can't make a determination as to whether TAN is high or not. TAN never starts at zero but more like 3-4.
TAN by itself doesn't mean much. You have to look at how it relates to other attributes (ex, viscosity, insolubles).

"..


A broader picture: Looking at TAN and Oxidation



Total acid number, or TAN, is a measure of the concentration of acidic constituents in an oil. In used engine oil, an increase in TAN can be an indication of oxidation and an increase in the level of degradation of the oil. Along with oxidation comes an increase in viscosity. So, while TBN indicates how much base reserve remains in the oil, TAN can provide a more complete picture of the actual operating conditions within your engine.



An additional note about TAN: the test method has very good test repeatability but compared to other test methods it has a poorer reproducibility. What does this mean? Best practice is to have tests run at the same lab; results from tests run across different labs may be harder to interpret.



Oxidation is a permanent chemical change that takes place in oil molecules as they react with oxygen in the presence of heat and can be exacerbated when contaminants such as metals are present. It’s important because it can lead to a host of problems within the engine oil including sludge and deposit formation, increased viscosity (which causes in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency) and depletion of additives. All these result in an acceleration in the degradation of the engine oil and a subsequent need to change the oil more frequently."
 
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btw what I have noticed after the LL switch from Shell to BP/ Castrol oil, the MPG has dropped slightly by 1,5-2 MPG
it was consistent around 29-29.5 mpg for 30K miles, now 27.5-28 using BMW 0W20 LL FE only oil. Same driving regiment, same gas station
 
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btw what I have noticed after the LL switch from Shell to BP/ Castrol oil, the MPG has dropped slightly by 1,5-2 MPG
it was consistent around 29-29.5 mpg for 30K miles, now 27.5-28 using BMW 0W20 LL FE only oil. Same driving regiment, same gas station
You're attributing a fuel economy change to the brand? Same grade? No way.

Considering the multitude of uncontrolled variables in everyday driving it is literally impossible to correlate any one variable to an observed change. The energy density of gasoline varies considerably even at the same gas station, one study I referenced showed it was around 4% - and this was independent of any changes due to winter or summer blend.

Here is a good post by someone who knows a thing or two about statistically significant variables:

 
btw what I have noticed after the LL switch from Shell to BP/ Castrol oil, the MPG has dropped slightly by 1,5-2 MPG
it was consistent around 29-29.5 mpg for 30K miles, now 27.5-28 using BMW 0W20 LL FE only oil. Same driving regiment, same gas station

Yea there’s no way the oil alone would do that. Probably dragging brakes or a loss in efficiency elsewhere in the drivetrain.
 
Without knowing the base TAN you can't make a determination as to whether TAN is high or not. TAN never starts at zero but more like 3-4.
TAN by itself doesn't mean much. You have to look at how it relates to other attributes (ex, viscosity, insolubles).

"..


A broader picture: Looking at TAN and Oxidation



Total acid number, or TAN, is a measure of the concentration of acidic constituents in an oil. In used engine oil, an increase in TAN can be an indication of oxidation and an increase in the level of degradation of the oil. Along with oxidation comes an increase in viscosity. So, while TBN indicates how much base reserve remains in the oil, TAN can provide a more complete picture of the actual operating conditions within your engine.



An additional note about TAN: the test method has very good test repeatability but compared to other test methods it has a poorer reproducibility. What does this mean? Best practice is to have tests run at the same lab; results from tests run across different labs may be harder to interpret.



Oxidation is a permanent chemical change that takes place in oil molecules as they react with oxygen in the presence of heat and can be exacerbated when contaminants such as metals are present. It’s important because it can lead to a host of problems within the engine oil including sludge and deposit formation, increased viscosity (which causes in a significant reduction in fuel efficiency) and depletion of additives. All these result in an acceleration in the degradation of the engine oil and a subsequent need to change the oil more frequently."
Higher TAN = too much of oxidation, not good overall. I am not trying to prolong OCI, I am trying to prolong lifespan of the delicate bmw engine.
TAN twice is higher than TBN, red flag in my mind and does not not really matter what was the original number, matters what is at the oil change point. TAN never starts at zero, but should not skyrocket that much. Normally I change my oil when TAN
The oil is good for 3-4K not more, will try to do UAO next time. Try to prove me wrong, I do not see any proof yet otherwise.
 
You're attributing a fuel economy change to the brand? Same grade? No way.

Considering the multitude of uncontrolled variables in everyday driving it is literally impossible to correlate any one variable to an observed change. The energy density of gasoline varies considerably even at the same gas station, one study I referenced showed it was around 4% - and this was independent of any changes due to winter or summer blend.

Here is a good post by someone who knows a thing or two about statistically significant variables:


We will see I did the last oil change using "old" shell 0W20 LL17FE batch .
Also we had unusual a couple of cold months, maybe the cold water has contributed.
But I agree it is within the margin of error.
 
Higher TAN = too much of oxidation, not good overall. I am not trying to prolong OCI, I am trying to prolong lifespan of the delicate bmw engine.
TAN twice is higher than TBN, red flag in my mind and does not not really matter what was the original number, matters what is at the oil change point. TAN never starts at zero, but should not skyrocket that much. Normally I change my oil when TAN
The oil is good for 3-4K not more, will try to do UAO next time. Try to prove me wrong, I do not see any proof yet otherwise.
Not necessarily. TAN/TBN have a relationship, but there are other things that can affect it. Certain base oils, like esters, will also skew oxidation. Yes, the classic rule of thumb was that it was time to change when TAN crosses TBN, but that lost its universality when things got more complex with low sulfur fuels and changes in additive package composition. Initial TBN on mid and low SAPS oils dropped considerably, but the lubricants were still capable of the drains seen with their high TBN full SAPS predecessors, provided the fuel was suitably low sulfur. This is where it is not uncommon to see lower TBN in a UOA, and higher TAN, but the lubricant still be serviceable. TBN is still showing active base in play; isn't depleted, there's just a slower ROC in its depletion, which isn't obvious unless you do a series of UOA's on the same fill.
 
Higher TAN = too much of oxidation, not good overall. I am not trying to prolong OCI, I am trying to prolong lifespan of the delicate bmw engine.
TAN twice is higher than TBN, red flag in my mind and does not not really matter what was the original number, matters what is at the oil change point. TAN never starts at zero, but should not skyrocket that much. Normally I change my oil when TAN
The oil is good for 3-4K not more, will try to do UAO next time. Try to prove me wrong, I do not see any proof yet otherwise.


I think a second fill is needed. I once had a random UOA show similar high TAN @ almost 2x TBN but the next fill and subsequent analysis showed a normal TAN and TBN was higher and all was well again in the world.
 
Higher TAN = too much of oxidation, not good overall. I am not trying to prolong OCI, I am trying to prolong lifespan of the delicate bmw engine.
TAN twice is higher than TBN, red flag in my mind and does not not really matter what was the original number, matters what is at the oil change point. TAN never starts at zero, but should not skyrocket that much. Normally I change my oil when TAN
The oil is good for 3-4K not more, will try to do UAO next time. Try to prove me wrong, I do not see any proof yet otherwise.
viscosity was fine and so were insolubles so there isnt severe oxidation therefore a "high" TAN in this case doesn't mean much.
 
Btw I wanted to ask, what would be a good alternative to BMW LL FE oil. The manual states to use only either LL01FE or LL14FE+ ( LL17FE+) 0W20 or 0W30
This is a B46/B48 engine and the car is PZEV, so I do not think it is a good idea to use full-SAPS oils like PP Euro 5W40 or Castrol Euro 5W30 in order to protect the emission system of the car. Also I think those euro oils have high calcium, which is not good to prevent LSPI, as that engine is also affected.

I broke my head already, seems like there is no aftermarket alternative for now. BMW seems like does not like to either provide specs for LL FE approvals to the manufacturers, or the oil manufactures on the US market do not care about the approval. Either way there is something fishy
 
The TBN/TAN talk is moot. I do agree with BMWTurboDzl and others; you cannot just know a single TAN number in a test and assume you know everything; you have to know the TAN in the virgin oil prior to use, to judge the change in TAN.

Further, the crossover with TAN and TBN hasn't shown to mean much these days. Long gone are the fuels (espcially diesel) with high sulphur content. The contributors to fast acid buildup are gone. I've lost track of how many times I've seen TAN cross over TBN and absolutely nothing bad ever happened.

What matters are the wear metals. And those are decent in these UOAs. The Fe is just a tad over 1ppm/1k miles. The other metals are merely at noise levels. There's nothing but good wear rates here.

The TBN/TAN relationship is a precursor to a POTENTIAL change in wear. That's all. The values of TBN/TAN are NOT a reason to change oil; they are only a reason to monitor the oil closer for a possible shift in wear metals.

There are two reasons to change oil based on wear metals.
- the total accumulation of a metal is at/above a condemnation point (say for example, 100ppm of Fe)
- the rate of wear has exceeded some magnitude that is a condemation point (say for example, three successive UOAs where the "rate" increases ... 2.0ppm/1k miles, then 2.3ppm/1k miles, then 2.8ppm/1k miles). The increase in wear rate indicates that the oil is compromised and protection is diminished.

The recommendation to go 7.5k miles is a sound one by Blackstone. The wear is very "normal" here and no reason to expect it's going to shoot out of control anytime soon. If things look good at 7.5k miles, then 10k would not be out of the question by any means.
 
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