BMW and LL01 (Not a which oil...thread)

[srfdude]

'03 540i, (V8) Dinan tweaked. 140K miles. Been using m1 0-40, but my stash is gone, and new version doesn't have LL01 certs. Also getting a little startup rattle. So I am going to up the grade a little, maybe 5W-40 or even 10W-40. Living at the edge of the desert in SoCal, never run/start below 40°, and usually 100° and up in summer.

The real question is: considering the advances in gasoline and oils since the LL01 specs came out, what could possibly hurt my engine if I left LL01 behind?

 

[kschachn]

Upping the grade would be going to a 50-grade rather than changing the winter rating.

And no one here can predict the second thing you ask. It depends on where you go for one thing.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

While a little early but I suspect your guides are beginning to show their wear. Oil weight won't fix that. Mask it perhaps.

BMW has updated their LL01 specification over the years with 2018 being the most recent which includes a wear test for timing chain (different engine than yours).

 

[edyvw]

LL01 was updated 5-6 times since 2001. M1 didn’t lose LL01. BMW changed requirements in 2018 eliminating all 0WXX oils in LL01 and LL04 approvals.
So your old stash that had LL01 would not have it today anyway.
As said, going 5W40 or 10W40 doesn’t mean thicker. Also, you are probably downgrading depends which oil you use.

 

[OVERKILL]

Wasn't the 540i with the M62 V8 prone to timing chain/guide problems because it didn't receive the big double roller chain that the M5 got?

If that's what you are hearing, oil isn't going to fix it. I remember there was a guy on M5board back when I had mine, that spent a considerable amount of time doing his chain and guides, it was not a pleasant undertaking.

Other issues I recall were VANOS related, due to the use of butyl rubber o-rings in the units whereas the M5 received viton ones. The rubber ones harden and stop sealing.

 

[JHZR2]

I would not be concerned with LL-01 assuming it held other modern standards including the MB sheets. Since you don’t have a DI/turbo engine, much of what folks are concerned about these days is somewhat moot, though of course better wear protection, oxidative stability, etc is always welcome.

You can’t really go wrong with M1 0w-40, though for your conditions I would give 5w-40 a thought. You mention 10w-40, and you might give even M1 high mileage 10w-40 a look. It used to have a god ACEA A3/B3 typemrsting, so good HTHS and other parameters that made it ok for Euro engines. Latest pds are pretty scant on details though….

PdsDetailsPage

Mobil 1™ High Mileage oils are advanced full synthetic motor oils designed to help extend the engine life of vehicles with over 75,000 miles and to protect for up to 10,000 miles between oil changes*.

www.mobil.com

 

[srfdude]

Thanks for replies. But for those who mentioned that 5-10W-40 is merely an increase in cold weather attributes, let me remind you that all my oil analyses showed the original 0w-40 sheared down to a 30 weight rather quickly. So I think a more robust version 40 wt. would indeed be a benefit.

Wasn't the 540i with the M62 V8 prone to timing chain/guide problems because it didn't receive the big double roller chain that the M5 got?

If that's what you are hearing, oil isn't going to fix it. I remember there was a guy on M5board back when I had mine, that spent a considerable amount of time doing his chain and guides, it was not a pleasant undertaking.

Other issues I recall were VANOS related, due to the use of butyl rubber o-rings in the units whereas the M5 received viton ones. The rubber ones harden and stop sealing.

Yup, sigh, all of those problems are/will be rearing their ugly head. Just trying to prolong the inevitable. There is an outfit who provides a kit for redoing the VANOS seals, although it is tedious. As for heads, well.... This engine goes through OEM valve cover gaskets every 15K miles. Why can the Japanese make gaskets that live the life of the engine?

 

[OVERKILL]

Thanks for replies. But for those who mentioned that 5-10W-40 is merely an increase in cold weather attributes, let me remind you that all my oil analyses showed the original 0w-40 sheared down to a 30 weight rather quickly. So I think a more robust version 40 wt. would indeed be a benefit.

Most viscosity loss is due to fuel, not shear. If you used Blackstone, the fuel percentage shown is not going to be even remotely close to accurate. That was the case for my M5, I used a lab that performed GC for fuel and had 5% fuel.

Yup, sigh, all of those problems are/will be rearing their ugly head. Just trying to prolong the inevitable. There is an outfit who provides a kit for redoing the VANOS seals, although it is tedious. As for heads, well.... This engine goes through OEM valve cover gaskets every 15K miles. Why can the Japanese make gaskets that live the life of the engine?

Amusingly, I never had to do my VCG's on the M5. When I started running M1 0w-40 in it, the seeping stopped, it was odd. Yes, there's Dr. Vanos and a few other outfits IIRC. Getting the S62 seals would be a good move if you do have to go that route, as would be updating the the timing chain (and I assume guides) to the S62 ones.

It's BMW's use of butyl rubber for seals and hoses that's the issue (along with biodegradable plastic). American marques switched to silicone ages ago too, it's not just the Japanese. My 5.4L Modular had almost triple the mileage of my M5 but the hoses, plastics and seals were pristine. The vehicles were close to the same age, it was nuts.

 

[kschachn]

Yep.

 

[RooflessVW]

Which 5W-40 or 10W-40 is "more robust" than M1 0W-40?

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

If you're not concerned about approvals I'd probably try the Mobil1 10w40 high mileage. But I wouldn't expect massive difference.

 

[srfdude]

Which 5W-40 or 10W-40 is "more robust" than M1 0W-40?

Without nitpicking semantics, robust is used to describe the cst as being well within the appropriate range for the particular oil. M1 0w-40 has been shown in many lab tests as shearing down to barely over, sometimes under, 40 range. Thus my comment.
However OVERKILL says that fuel is the major cause of those readings.
Can someone suggest a lab that may be more accurate?

 

[kschachn]

Without nitpicking semantics, robust is used to describe the cst as being well within the appropriate range for the particular oil. M1 0w-40 has been shown in many lab tests as shearing down to barely over, sometimes under, 40 range. Thus my comment.

Mechanical shear is highly dependent on the application. Have you positively observed this particular oil to experience mechanical shear in your engine?

Plus those "many lab tests", are they on the current product offering?

 

[srfdude]

Plus those "many lab tests", are they on the current product offering?

Well that is a good question. I'm not sure that this particular oil remains static in its properties, some of the readings vary widely. Is that a function of the lab? DIfferent oil:?
My original thought was to move on becauset the current version no longer specs LL01

 

[JavierH19]

Upping the grade would be going to a 50-grade rather than changing the winter rating.

And no one here can predict the second thing you ask. It depends on where you go for one thing.

I get what you're saying but euro 0/5w-40's are almost always around 12.7-13.5 cst kv100 with at least 3.5hths but can shear down to a 30 grade since they're at the bottom of the 40 grade range and sacrifice viscosity stability with that low w rating. But some euro rated oil won't shear out of grade which i think is more important.

A 10w rated gasoline oil or 5/15w rated diesel or gas/diesel oil almost never go below 14cst kv100 even with some shearing or normal dilution and have a higher hths so i think OP could give those a try even if they also don't carry the ll-01 rating.

I don't think it'll do much so if i were him i'd give m1 15w-50 a go.

 

[JavierH19]

Wouldn't worry about it not having the ll-01 approval too much, Your engine isn't direct injected or turbocharged either. I'd give a 15w-40 rated diesel oil like delvac extreme or t6 a try. Higher kv100 and hths with diesel grades and they aren't as susceptible to shear or dilution. Not cold were you're at either. Or you can give 15w-50 m1 a try too.

 

[edyvw]

Without nitpicking semantics, robust is used to describe the cst as being well within the appropriate range for the particular oil. M1 0w-40 has been shown in many lab tests as shearing down to barely over, sometimes under, 40 range. Thus my comment.
However OVERKILL says that fuel is the major cause of those readings.
Can someone suggest a lab that may be more accurate?

Typical KV100 value of M1 0W40 FS is 12.9. That means one bottle could be 12.7 another 13. Who knows.
So if it shears down from 12.7 to 12.4, which is XW30 what does that mean?
Also, going M1 10W40 HM is serious downgrade in sophistication of oil. You are departing from state of the art oil that has all gentlemen set of base stocks, GTL, PAO and Esters, to bit of PAO and Group III. Also, protection of an engine is not only dependent on KV100 or HTHS, but additives too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Without nitpicking semantics, robust is used to describe the cst as being well within the appropriate range for the particular oil. M1 0w-40 has been shown in many lab tests as shearing down to barely over, sometimes under, 40 range. Thus my comment.
However OVERKILL says that fuel is the major cause of those readings.
Can someone suggest a lab that may be more accurate?

As others have noted, the Euro 5w-40's are typically on the low end of the 40 scale, regardless of their Winter rating. This is because this segment is driven by HTHS rather than 100C visc. That's why the pool of oils that have historically all carried the same approvals consists of 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, 5w-40 with the former near the top of the visc range for an xW-30 and the latter being near the bottom for an xW-40.

 

[Craig in Canada]

I was looking for a current LL-01 rated oils and I ended up going with PP Euro 5W40 for my N55. I haven't had any reason to be unhappy with it yet, and if I still had my M52 or N52 from the past I wouldn't hesitate to run it in those too.

TBH, back when I had an M62 and M62TU "in the family", we would sometimes run Rotella T 15W40 for the summer - smooth, quiet, cheap, good UOAs. It seemed like 90s tech BMW engines loved the stuff. At the time I told myself if I lived in a different climate I'd just run that. I haven't looked at the Rotella line up in a very long time, but it seems to have changed quite a bit so I can't say I'd do that these days without a lot more research.

OVERKILL - lab recommendations? Did you find something you like in Canada/GTA?

 

[OVERKILL]

OVERKILL - lab recommendations? Did you find something you like in Canada/GTA?

I was using Toromont for the longest time because they offered free TBN/TAN if you requested it and used GC for fuel. That's all changed now. It looks like the OAI kits from AMSOIL are the best "bang for buck" if you want those things tested for at this point.