Black Boxs in cars mandatory 2008

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Yep,

Now gonna keep my old cars even longer. Nothing like cradle to grave security.

I could go along with this if there was not such a potential for misuse. Giving tickets out using this technology is nothing but a cash cow, or one could say justice on the cheap.


Who’s Watching?
By ERIC PETERS
Speedometer


Big Brother will be watching you for sure by 2008 -- the year a proposed requirement that Event Data Recorders (EDRs) become mandatory standard equipment in all new cars and trucks will become law unless public outrage puts the kibosh on it somehow.

EDRs are "black boxes" -- just like airplanes have. They can record a wide variety of things -- including how fast you drive and whether you "buckle-up for safety." The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) wants EDRs to be installed in every new vehicle beginning with model year 2008 -- on the theory that the information will help crash investigators more accurately determine the hows and whys of accidents.

But EDRs could -- and likely will be -- used for other purposes as well.

Tied into GPS navigation computers, EDRs could give interested parties the ability to take automated ticketing to the next level. Since the data recorders can continuously monitor most of the operating parameters of a vehicle as it travels -- and the GPS unit can precisely locate the vehicle in "real time," wherever it happens to be at any given moment -- any and all incidents of "speeding" could be immediately detected and a piece of paying paper issued to the offender faster than he could tap the brake. That's even if he knew he was in the crosshairs, which of course he wouldn't. Probably they'll just erect an electronic debiting system of some sort that ties directly into your checking account -- since the paperwork could not keep up with the massive uptick in fines that would be generated.

What Do You Think?

If you think this is just a dark-minded paranoiac vision, think again. Rental car companies have already deployed a very similar system of onboard electronic monitoring to identify customers who dare to drive faster than the posted limit -- and automatically tap them with a "surcharge" for their scofflaw ways. While this inventive form of "revenue enhancement" was challenged and subsequently batted down by the courts, the technology continues to be honed -- and quietly put into service.

Already, 15-20 percent of all the cars and trucks in service have EDRs; most of these are General Motors vehicles. GM has been installing "black boxes" in its new cars and trucks since about 1996 as part of the Supplemental Restraint (air bag) system. Within a few years, as many as 90 percent of all new motor vehicles will be equipped with EDRs, according to government estimates -- whether the requirement NHTSA is pushing actually becomes law or not.

The automakers are just as eager to keep tabs on us as the government -- in part to keep the shyster lawyers who have been so successfully digging into their deep pockets at bay. EDRs would provide irrefutable evidence of high-speed driving, for example -- or make it impossible for a person injured in a crash to deny he wasn't wearing a seat belt.

Insurance companies will launch "safety" campaigns urging that "we use available technology" to identify "unsafe" drivers -- and who will be able to argue against that? Everyone knows that speeding is against the law -- and if you aren't breaking the law, what have you got to worry about?

It's all for our own good.

But if you get edgy thinking about the government -- and our friends in corporate America -- being able to monitor where we go and how we go whenever they feel like checking in on us, take the time to write a "Thanks, but no thanks" letter to NHTSA at http://dms.dot.gov/

[ August 22, 2006, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Dan4510 ]
 
Wow, automatic ticketing? Where I live several speeding cameras have been put up. Many many many people have objected to it - but the thing is still there. Throughout night it is interesting to see the thing flash several times... This is in California of all places
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I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. On my way home from work on the 210 freeway - average speed is 75mph. The carpool lane has to be 15+ mph. Cops rarely ticket people as long as they stay with the flow of traffic. Doing 75mph for 110 miles is nice - faster than 65mph.

I'm foreseeing a future of cars with the gas pedal being limited to 65 or whatever the posted speed limit is and where having big engines is a thing of the past. That will allow computers to start driving for us... "I-Robot".

Nooo thank you. Why don't you just stick a computer chip in my arm and call me 00495832? Before you know it - I want to go to the grocery store at 11:00pm - "Sorry, 00495832 it is too late for you to be driving at night. Return home."
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Quick summary: the 2008 "rule" isn't happening. It's not true.

On 21 August, the US Department of Transportation (DOT), of which NHTSA is part, issued a rule standardizing what EDRs must record. There is no requirement for GPS tracking of vehicle location. Manufacturers must also tell the owner if an EDR is installed on the vehicle. The rule takes effect in 2011 and does not require that manufacturers install EDRs in cars and light trucks. A summary appears on NHTSA.gov.

However, in working groups in 2004, NHTSA meeting boards did propose requiring EDRs in new vehicles. Joan Claybrook, a big proponent of some of the silly safety regulations imposed on cars in the 1970s and the reason for the airbag mandate, was behind the proposal. It's obvious that cooler heads higher up saw a land mine ahead and backed away from mandating EDRs, but it appears that requiring their use in heavy trucks might happen after more study.

Claybrook received much of the blame for the deaths of children and small adults caused by airbags, and she now is trying to shift the blame to the lack of EDRs in early airbag-equipped cars that "might" have enabled the feds to adjust airbag deployment requirements to prevent those casualties. (In my book, she deserved the blame, especially after she tried to justify the deaths by pointing to how many more other lives airbags had allegedly saved.)

Obviously, we must be vigilant about the possibility of an EDR mandate in cars and light trucks. Right now, however, NHTSA and DOT are not requiring their use.

OriginHacker's scenario of speed limiters on cars has come up in Britain. Car magazine mentioned it some months back. Essentially, after a certain date some years in the future when the technology is in place, new vehicles in Britain would be required to have remotely controlled speed limiters to prevent speeding above the posted limit on any road, if the proposal passes. Given the surveillance society that is rapidly evolving there, passage seems likely. Of course, you have to wonder what the government will do without the revenue from speeding fines. Those fines are pretty serious in Britain, often the equivalent of a four-figure dollar amount.

Proposals for a flat speed limiter on new vehicles of, say, 75 mph were made in the US in the 1970s after the feds imposed the 55 mph limit, but they fortunately went nowhere. The requirement that new car speedometers be limited to 85 mph was related, and it was the rule for several years in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Proposals such as mandating EDRs would give certain business, insurance, and government types a lot of pleasure. Save your letters for the real thing when it comes up in the future (and it will), and don't make yourself look like a crank by corresponding about a bogus rule now. This reminds me a little of the stories that show up from time to time about the United Nations banning over-the-counter sales of vitamins worldwide.
 
The black box technology is not new. There is a family member I know with a serious drinking problem. We have all talked to him, he's been in rehab, he just won't deal with his addiction on the level required to stop it. At any rate, he totalled his Z06 on Christmas morning a couple of years back. The insurance company got a hold of the black box from the impound lot, and found that at the time of impact, he was doing 130, no anti-lock brake pulses were being sent, and throttle position was at 40%. They didn't pay, he lost his license for a good while, and to this day is blaming Chevy for his life being hosed up. BB technology will become more integrated as computer technology matures, and more services to the motorist become available. Even now, OnStar will send a signal for an oil change to the sat, and e-mail or page you for notification.
 
The OnStar service is strictly opt-in and contains only informative vehicle health information for the owner. There's no big brother there. What happens is the vehicle dials in automatically once a month and uploads the various parameters contained in the e-mail from the computer. OnStar's systems then format the data and send the owner an e-mail. The black box, on the other hand, is another story.

WRT the black box, the easiest way to implement that is to integrate it into the vehicle's computer. That's why it's on every GM vehicle. They only have a few core computer designs that are slightly modified for each vehicle/powertrain combination. That makes it easy to roll out. What's more is there is no separate "black box" you can unplug.

Personally, I'm not worried, but I can see where some would be. I see this as just another tool law enforcement can use when trying to figure out what happened in a traffic accident. In 90%+ of cases where it is used, it will only serve to confirm what they already suspect. I HIGHLY doubt it will be used for such things as automatic ticketing. The public simply won't accept that, nor should they.
 
We already have a simple version instituted in our cars, for years.
My 2003 owner's manual states that "We, or a law engforcment agency, can use the data in the ECU to determine conditions at an accident". [not the exact wording]
It turns out that this has been around for even longer. Info is tough to get about this, however.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Matt_S:
The OnStar service is strictly opt-in and contains only informative vehicle health information for the owner. There's no big brother there. What happens is the vehicle dials in automatically once a month and uploads the various parameters contained in the e-mail from the computer. OnStar's systems then format the data and send the owner an e-mail. The black box, on the other hand, is another story.

WRT the black box, the easiest way to implement that is to integrate it into the vehicle's computer. That's why it's on every GM vehicle. They only have a few core computer designs that are slightly modified for each vehicle/powertrain combination. That makes it easy to roll out. What's more is there is no separate "black box" you can unplug.

Personally, I'm not worried, but I can see where some would be. I see this as just another tool law enforcement can use when trying to figure out what happened in a traffic accident. In 90%+ of cases where it is used, it will only serve to confirm what they already suspect. I HIGHLY doubt it will be used for such things as automatic ticketing. The public simply won't accept that, nor should they.


100% right.
 
With the hacking community out there, I'm sure you will be able to get hackers to disable any recording function, or record bogus data, such as the car was going 15 miles/hour, 5% throttle, blah, blah, blah.

You don't need to replace the computer, just change it's instructions to tell it to no longer record data.
 
I get so sick of cars going way over the speed limit around here I kinda like the idea of automatic ticketing. I-95 through Richmond is a nasty stretch of road, esp. where 64 and 95 run together. Taking the lesser of 2 evils, big bro or more awful crashes.
 
There was already a device which could defeat the speed limiters in the ECU by "freezing" the signal from the VSS at a certain programmable speed. That is, say it were set for 65MPH, after you exceeded 65MPH it would continue to send a pulse train that represented 65MPH.
 
Yep, the lawyer's monopoly and the insurance monopoly screwing us over. This technology does have two potentials to help me, either (a) if it makes cars safer by helping to engineer their design to better take certain conditions of impact, and (b) if insurance companies would offer me significantly lower rates by having me offer them mydriving information.

(a) is already true, MB and saab at least use the data (and even send engineers to look at crashed cars) for engineering.

(b) will likely never be true, as insurers will flop an opt in solution to be a necessity or coverage. I have nothing to hide, but given how insurers screw us over, I dont wish to be in their corner.

JMH
 
Half the time they don't even go the speed limit here. I'll be stuck behind someone lane-locking with someone else both going 40 in a 45.

Only usually seems to happen in the morning, though.
 
quote:

Rental car companies have already deployed a very similar system of onboard electronic monitoring to identify customers who dare to drive faster than the posted limit -- and automatically tap them with a "surcharge" for their scofflaw ways.

this was on I think dateline years ago. a guy rented a car and when he got his statement he noticed charges from the rental companies. when he asked why they said well you exceeded teh speed limit on this time and this time. he said how did you know. they told him about that lil black box. he took the rental comapny to court and the judge said it was an invasion of privacy and tehy couldnt do that. sso they have to refund all his money.
 
quote:

Originally posted by javacontour:
With the hacking community out there, I'm sure you will be able to get hackers to disable any recording function, or record bogus data, such as the car was going 15 miles/hour, 5% throttle, blah, blah, blah...

For sure, there will be hackers (i.e. “rolling” back the odometer, sticking the emissions testing pipe on another tailpipe), but you can be sure the fines will be very steep ($$ and/or jail)..

For some reason, this black box intimidates me as much as public surveillance cameras - So what/who cares
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