Bikers don't judge...

[ollie]

Bottom line, you can be on the edge of the tire, and change your line, etc., as long as there is still reserve grip available.

If you are already on the edge of the tread and need to lean further to do an avoidance/line change you crash. There is no reserve grip past the edge of the tire.

I can run numerous canyon roads, use all of the tread, and not even exceed the speed limit. Certainly nowhere near a 10/10ths pace...

Not true. Anytime you are using all available tread on a public highway you are at 10/10ths regardless of speed. You can attempt to spin this anyway you want. You cannot compete with physics.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Anytime you are using all available tread on a public highway you are at 10/10ths regardless of speed. You can attempt to spin this anyway you want. You cannot compete with physics.

You can lean all the way over on the tires at pretty low speeds, depending on the radius of the corner, and not feel anywhere close to being "on the edge" (depending on the specific bike of course). Motorcycles are designed (with applicable tires) to lean over at 45~50 degrees, and many people riding them use them to that extent on public roads without feeling like they are at 10/10s of the bikes capability.

 

[Silverado12]

People can do as they wish, but I'm just a guy with a Harley who likes to have a little fun w/o living on the "edge" LOL.

 

[ollie]

You can lean all the way over on the tires at pretty low speeds, depending on the radius of the corner, and not feel anywhere close to being "on the edge" (depending on the specific bike of course). Motorcycles are designed (with applicable tires) to lean over at 45~50 degrees, and many people riding them use them to that extent on public roads without feeling like they are at 10/10s of the bikes capability.

How very true. We have a local mountain here (Palomar Mountain) that has some of the only few decreasing radius corners on public highways in the country. You know when to slow down where you see skid marks or fresh/bent guardrail.

This same mountain is a really good one to practice going down from the top in neutral and using brakes only to control the bike. For those that have not done it, you will be amazed at how much throttle controls the direction of the bike. Years ago we would attempt to go down it without stopping all the way from top of mountain to the bottom. I made it a few times on my Ninja but more times could not.

Start at the stop sign feet up in neutral just past Mothers Kitchen and keep your bike rolling without putting a foot down all the way down into Oak Knoll Campground. A few of the nuttier guys can coast faster than most riders can in gear. But you have to know all 30 some odd corners and have guys stationed in radio contact with you to warn you of oncoming traffic.

Mother's Kitchen · 33120 Canfield Rd, Palomar Mountain, CA 92060

âââââ · Restaurant

goo.gl

 

[02SE]

If you are already on the edge of the tread and need to lean further to do an avoidance/line change you crash. There is no reserve grip past the edge of the tire.



Not true. Anytime you are using all available tread on a public highway you are at 10/10ths regardless of speed. You can attempt to spin this anyway you want. You cannot compete with physics.

I'm thinking you must be new to riding, or have a lot to learn.

On the street I'm not hanging off dragging knees and elbows, with nothing left in reserve. I can be on the edge of the tire, at relatively low speed, and alter my body position on the bike, and speed up or slow down to alter my line.

So yes it IS true, I or anyone can be at the edge of the tread, at low speed, and have plenty in reserve to alter my line just by changing my body position on the bike, or braking or accelerating.

On my sportbikes, with their very grippy tires, you can be on the edge of the tread, and be nowhere near the available grip limit. Being at the limit of grip, means I'm racing on a track.

Seriously, get some instruction in advanced riding. The skills you learn may save your life. Chuckwalla Raceway has some advanced riding classes available.

I recall one gentleman who came out to a track riding class I was assisting in teaching. He said he felt he was wasting his time at the start of the class, and that he had 30 years of riding experience. At the end of the class he stated that what he had prior to the class was 1 year of experience, 30 times.

 

[Ronsant]

If you are on the edge of your tires, body position is only going to adjust your line so far, maybe not far enough to avoid a hazard.
That is why they have corner workers at the track, so you can slow down when there is a hazard on the track.
You don’t have corner workers on your local racer road.
I have done track days with classroom instruction and track time.
Even when I was in the “A” group, I don’t use those lean angles on the street. Each to his or her own. My point is having some “chicken strips” doesn’t mean that you don’t know how to ride. For me it means I haven’t done a track day this year.

 

[ollie]

I have been riding a lot longer than you think. What you are stating is simply not true. It is impossible to alter your line into the direction you are leaning when at the edge of the tire. Lee Parks teaches this. It's called a lowside. Please show me a video where a rider is at the edge of the tread and can lean and control the bike past the tread without lowsiding. Humanly impossible.

If you are on the edge of your tires, body position is only going to adjust your line so far, maybe not far enough to avoid a hazard.
That is why they have corner workers at the track, so you can slow down when there is a hazard on the track.
You don’t have corner workers on your local racer road.
I have done track days with classroom instruction and track time.
Even when I was in the “A” group, I don’t use those lean angles on the street. Each to his or her own. My point is having some “chicken strips” doesn’t mean that you don’t know how to ride. For me it means I haven’t done a track day this year.

I too like to keep a little bit of tread in reserve. It allows me to trail brake deep into a corner and adjust as needed for unknown conditions that come up. Oncoming traffic, stalls, rocks coming off and landing in road, holes, etc, etc.

It is almost laughable when someone claims they can run on the edge of the tire and still have the ability to control the bike to turn in further. Riding is dangerous. I'm thinking the OP is not getting the concept I'm trying to explain.

And yes I'm sure I could learn a lot on the track. I'm all about advanced training to keep me alive on the street. Most of my practice is low traction conditions off road, slow speed drills, avoidance, and braking drills. Braking is a big one.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Here's the rear tire on my XSR900. Street riding, and maybe at around 7/10s the bike's cornering capability ... nothing too crazy.

 

[02SE]

If you are on the edge of your tires, body position is only going to adjust your line so far, maybe not far enough to avoid a hazard.
That is why they have corner workers at the track, so you can slow down when there is a hazard on the track.
You don’t have corner workers on your local racer road.
I have done track days with classroom instruction and track time.
Even when I was in the “A” group, I don’t use those lean angles on the street. Each to his or her own. My point is having some “chicken strips” doesn’t mean that you don’t know how to ride. For me it means I haven’t done a track day this year.

Well, all I can say is that everyone is different. I can think of a turn in a nearby canyon, that I can take at 25 mph, right on the edge of the tire, and lots of grip in reserve. Or I can take it at 50 mph, again right on the edge of the tire, but with less grip in reserve, and less chance to avoid potential hazards.

When racing on a roadracing track, I'll be pushing much harder than I would on the street.

 

[02SE]

I have been riding a lot longer than you think. What you are stating is simply not true.

Well, as I said in relating the situation wherein the student thought he was very experienced, with 30 years of riding. Then after a day of riding instruction, he realized he had a lot to learn.

You can believe whatever you like. But in the interest of your own safety and enjoyment while riding, I'd suggest some advanced riding classes. Since you mentioned Palomar, I suggested a class at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway.

Trackdaz does some instructing there: http://www.trackdaz.com/site/chuckwalla-valley-raceway/

 

[ragtoplvr]

the square inches of tire tread on the ground is about equal to the weight applied and the pressure. If you have 30 PSI and 300 lbs load you have 10 square inches of tire. This does not change at the edge of the tread, the shape changes to accommodate the load. Car tires prove this. There are second order effects, but this holds true within about 80% of theoretical. The tread area can actually increase due to the centrifugal loading in a banked turn.

Rod

 

[ollie]

Well, as I said in relating the situation wherein the student thought he was very experienced, with 30 years of riding. Then after a day of riding instruction, he realized he had a lot to learn.

You can believe whatever you like. But in the interest of your own safety and enjoyment while riding, I'd suggest some advanced riding classes. Since you mentioned Palomar, I suggested a class at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway.

Trackdaz does some instructing there: http://www.trackdaz.com/site/chuckwalla-valley-raceway/

Well Sir you do not know me nor do you know my riding abilities just as I do not know yours. I suggest we all can further bike control and learn how to keep a bike upright when we lose grip. I learned more about braking and bike control than I thought possible when I took Jimmy Lewis Off Road School.

One thing you cannot seem to get past is basic physics. Does not matter how good of a rider you are. When you get past the tread that grips the pavement there is no amount input from the rider that can control the bike in the direction of that traction loss.

Let me see if I can explain this where you can understand: When you are making a hard right turn on the very edge of your tire, at it's very limit of grip, you are not going to have the ability to turn in harder to the right. No amount of body input, steering, riding experience, pro or novice is going to help. If you need to safely control the bike further to the right it's not going to happen.

As a safe street rider on public highways all of us should keep some tread in reserve. This is so we have something left in order to control the bike in any direction we choose to go. Your argument is "one sided" so to speak.

I do not think it is a safe practice to ride to the chicken strips on public highways regardless of rider skill. I do think it's a safe practice to ride in a way that you can control your bike and have the ability to make it go in either direction at any time.

Here is a video that will show you that not even a pro can control, save, or ride out past the limits of traction. I believe it's safe to say this rider has more track time than anyone here typing on this forum.



Of course he is suffering a broken arm right now and I'm hoping his career as a racer is over. I consider Marc Marquez the Bubba Stewart of Moto GP. He has as many crashes and caused as many crashes as he has championships.

 

[02SE]

One thing you cannot seem to get past is basic physics. Does not matter how good of a rider you are. When you get past the tread that grips the pavement there is no amount input from the rider that can control the bike in the direction of that traction loss.

When did I ever say I ride past the tread that grips the pavement? Answer: Never.

One thing you cannot seem to get past, is the concept that you don't ALWAYS have to be at the limit of grip, to be riding at the edge of the tread. Yet, you did give a thumbs up when another member pointed out that you can be riding on the edge of the tire, but not be going fast, or at the limits of traction...

I stand by my comment to get more training, for your own benefit.

 

[ollie]

When did I ever say I ride past the tread that grips the pavement? Answer: Never.

One thing you cannot seem to get past, is the concept that you don't ALWAYS have to be at the limit of grip, to be riding at the edge of the tread. Yet, you did give a thumbs up when another member pointed out that you can be riding on the edge of the tire, but not be going fast, or at the limits of traction...

I stand by my comment to get more training, for your own benefit.

I did not say you rode past the tread. You said:

So yes it IS true, I or anyone can be at the edge of the tread, at low speed, and have plenty in reserve to alter my line just by changing my body position on the bike, or braking or accelerating.

right on the edge of the tire, and lots of grip in reserve.

Very clever wording on your part but still reckless and dangerous thinking if you are using the full width of the tread on public highways. There is no safety net to save you. You have zero grip in reserve when there is a situation where you have to lean over farther. My video above stated the obvious.

Please do not comment on my needs for training when you have no clue of my riding ability. I have not commented once on yours other than the fact you are suggesting dangerous riding practices on the highway and suggesting unsafe lean angles

Please answer a simple question: If you are in a right hand turn (regardless of speed), at the edge of your tire tread, and come upon a hazard that requires you to go deeper to the right to avoid it, how do you do it?

Last time I checked it cannot be done. At that point physics take over and you are going to either lowside or alter your course into the hazard.

 

[wpod]

Another one is knobs on seal - they wear flat, and it's obvious you never go around corners. But it's how they wear - the knobs bend, fold over and wear on the inside, making the tyre flat.

Best photo I could find of one of mine.

View attachment 35610

Huge tires for a lawn mower !!

 

[02SE]

Very clever wording on your part but still reckless and dangerous thinking if you are using the full width of the tread on public highways. There is no safety net to save you. You have zero grip in reserve when there is a situation where you have to lean over farther. My video above stated the obvious.

Please do not comment on my needs for training when you have no clue of my riding ability. I have not commented once on yours other than the fact you are suggesting dangerous riding practices on the highway and suggesting unsafe lean angles

Please answer a simple question: If you are in a right hand turn (regardless of speed), at the edge of your tire tread, and come upon a hazard that requires you to go deeper to the right to avoid it, how do you do it?

Last time I checked it cannot be done. At that point physics take over and you are going to either lowside or alter your course into the hazard.

Denial, is not a river in Egypt...

You put up an example of Marc Marquez, who is paid millions to ride as fast as possible. Always.



Where I have been clearly talking about the fact that one can ride to the edge of the tread, at well below the limit. An example I gave was the turn in a nearby canyon which can be taken anywhere from 25 to 50 mph with outright grip still in reserve. The difference? Speed (obviously) and body position on the bike. To take the turn at 50 mph, you have to be hanging off a fair bit. At 25 mph, very little or not at all. That's not to say that I ride to the edge of the tread at all times. Just that it CAN be done at speeds well below the limit of grip.

To answer your question: I don't ride faster on the street than a speed at which I can react (change speed or alter my line) to any unforeseen hazard. Ie: I don't take blind corners at a 10/10ths pace, like I will on a racetrack.

As for training: You are the one sounding like the student who thought he knew it all after 30 years of riding, until he took a class and found he had a lot to learn.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Here is a video that will show you that not even a pro can control, save, or ride out past the limits of traction. I believe it's safe to say this rider has more track time than anyone here typing on this forum.

Looks like he was braking the front wheel a bit too much going into the corner and put the front tire over the limit. You can see his hand on the front brake lever at the 5 second mark.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Please answer a simple question: If you are in a right hand turn (regardless of speed), at the edge of your tire tread, and come upon a hazard that requires you to go deeper to the right to avoid it, how do you do it?

Last time I checked it cannot be done. At that point physics take over and you are going to either lowside or alter your course into the hazard.

Only thing you can do is try to scrub off some speed so you can try and make a change in course evasive move - but applying too much brake in a panic situation while leaned over (or any situation for that matter) is easy to do, and if you do so it will most likely result in a lowside (like the video you posted above). The farther leaned over you are, the less room you have to make corrections mid-corner. Modern sport bikes can make some pretty amazing moves if handled exactly right in a panic situation.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Where I have been clearly talking about the fact that one can ride to the edge of the tread, at well below the limit. An example I gave was the turn in a nearby canyon which can be taken anywhere from 25 to 50 mph with outright grip still in reserve. The difference? Speed (obviously) and body position on the bike. To take the turn at 50 mph, you have to be hanging off a fair bit. At 25 mph, very little or not at all. That's not to say that I ride to the edge of the tread at all times. Just that it CAN be done at speeds well below the limit of grip.

To answer your question: I don't ride faster on the street than a speed at which I can react (change speed or alter my line) to any unforeseen hazard. Ie: I don't take blind corners at a 10/10ths pace, like I will on a racetrack.

I ride pretty much the same on the streets. Don't have to push it too hard to use the whole profile of the rear tire. With just street riding, the front tire will typically have a very small chicken strip while the rear tire has none ... at least on my bikes.

 

[ollie]

To answer your question: I don't ride faster on the street than a speed at which I can react (change speed or alter my line) to any unforeseen hazard. Ie: I don't take blind corners at a 10/10ths pace, like I will on a racetrack.

You are not answering the question. Please don’t talk in circles. Or maybe it is a deliberate way to avoid the facts and truth.

At the very edge of your tread can you react to an obstacle that requires you to lean farther into the turn? The answer is of course no. But you refuse to answer.