With a pour point of < -54C, I don't think the lingering oil pressure light is due to the M1 0w40 oil. A couple of seconds is normal anyway, but with today computer-driven dashboards I've noticed that the dash rarely "boots" fast enough to show you start-up transients anyway. On some vehicles you can switch to accessory mode to "boot" the dash, then start and you can (maybe, if the dash doesn't go through its start up bulb-testing dance AGAIN) watch the actual oil pressure build time. Makes me long for the days of real gauges.
Before and after 150 watt oil pan heater. Guess?
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And remember that all extension cords are not built the same!
A 100 watt heater will work with your cheap standard cord in a garage close to a outlet, but when you start talking about the extended use of 500-1000 watts that cheap 14 gauge stranded cord, and the vehicle is at the end of a 90' cord, it is going to be put to task.
Much like a generator, to push a significant amount of juice along a longer cord the higher quality cord the better.
6' from the outlet in your enclosed/attached garage I don't think it will matter.
A 100 watt heater will work with your cheap standard cord in a garage close to a outlet, but when you start talking about the extended use of 500-1000 watts that cheap 14 gauge stranded cord, and the vehicle is at the end of a 90' cord, it is going to be put to task.
Much like a generator, to push a significant amount of juice along a longer cord the higher quality cord the better.
6' from the outlet in your enclosed/attached garage I don't think it will matter.
Originally Posted By: stockrex
windchill does NOT do anything for oil
windchill will not affect the lowest temperature of the oil, but it will affect the rate at which it reaches that temperature.
which is why the heater did next to nothing in my example. Any heat which was added to the oil was quickly carried away by the wind.
I'm sure the temperature of the oil went up, but not nearly as much as it would have had the vehicle been in a garage.
windchill does NOT do anything for oil
windchill will not affect the lowest temperature of the oil, but it will affect the rate at which it reaches that temperature.
which is why the heater did next to nothing in my example. Any heat which was added to the oil was quickly carried away by the wind.
I'm sure the temperature of the oil went up, but not nearly as much as it would have had the vehicle been in a garage.
Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
And remember that all extension cords are not built the same!
A 100 watt heater will work with your cheap standard cord in a garage close to a outlet, but when you start talking about the extended use of 500-1000 watts that cheap 14 gauge stranded cord, and the vehicle is at the end of a 90' cord, it is going to be put to task.
Much like a generator, to push a significant amount of juice along a longer cord the higher quality cord the better.
6' from the outlet in your enclosed/attached garage I don't think it will matter.
By my calculations, with 90' of 14 gauge extension cord, the 1000 watt heater will still be outputting ~930 watts of heat.
1000 watt heater will draw about 8.3 amps at 120 volts
Voltage drop for 90' of 14 gauge with AC power is about 3.77 volts
Using Ohms law, the heater has a resistance of about 14.4 ohms.
With the new lower voltage of ~116.2 volts, and the resistance calculated above of 14.4 ohms, we can now calculate the new current draw of about 8 amps.
Using 116 volts, and 8 amps you get about 930watts of power that will be delivered.
Of course, the voltage drop lowers the current draw, which means the voltage drop won't be as much...so the power delivered should be slightly higher than what was calculated.
Heaters don't care about a little voltage drop like a power tool might...so don't worry too much about springing for a super fancy power cord for something like this.
IMHO of course!
And remember that all extension cords are not built the same!
A 100 watt heater will work with your cheap standard cord in a garage close to a outlet, but when you start talking about the extended use of 500-1000 watts that cheap 14 gauge stranded cord, and the vehicle is at the end of a 90' cord, it is going to be put to task.
Much like a generator, to push a significant amount of juice along a longer cord the higher quality cord the better.
6' from the outlet in your enclosed/attached garage I don't think it will matter.
By my calculations, with 90' of 14 gauge extension cord, the 1000 watt heater will still be outputting ~930 watts of heat.
1000 watt heater will draw about 8.3 amps at 120 volts
Voltage drop for 90' of 14 gauge with AC power is about 3.77 volts
Using Ohms law, the heater has a resistance of about 14.4 ohms.
With the new lower voltage of ~116.2 volts, and the resistance calculated above of 14.4 ohms, we can now calculate the new current draw of about 8 amps.
Using 116 volts, and 8 amps you get about 930watts of power that will be delivered.
Of course, the voltage drop lowers the current draw, which means the voltage drop won't be as much...so the power delivered should be slightly higher than what was calculated.
Heaters don't care about a little voltage drop like a power tool might...so don't worry too much about springing for a super fancy power cord for something like this.
IMHO of course!
Originally Posted By: stockrex
hmm, I am MI and it gets down to -2xF here,
I just put in any brand full synthetic oil, voila.
heaters are so 70s ;-)
check the pour point of oil, change to one with lower pour point.
windchill does NOT do anything for oil
story time:
I have not parked in a garage for the last 10 years, I rarely warm a vehicle.
maybe it is better to put in a thinner/synthetic oil than a heater in terms of cost/aggrevation etc.
+1 for the above comment. I've even noticed a difference on mid-winter cold starts when switching from conventional oil to semi-synthetic.
hmm, I am MI and it gets down to -2xF here,
I just put in any brand full synthetic oil, voila.
heaters are so 70s ;-)
check the pour point of oil, change to one with lower pour point.
windchill does NOT do anything for oil
story time:
I have not parked in a garage for the last 10 years, I rarely warm a vehicle.
maybe it is better to put in a thinner/synthetic oil than a heater in terms of cost/aggrevation etc.
+1 for the above comment. I've even noticed a difference on mid-winter cold starts when switching from conventional oil to semi-synthetic.
Oh yes, how are you guys getting a magnetic heater to stick to a cast aluminum oil pan???
Voltage drop for a 150 watt heater will be negligible. You could plug it into the end of a string of Xmas lights.
What's more important is the quality of the vinyl in the extension cord's insulation, if you have any intent to coil it up daily. The cheap cords are horribly stiff.
What's more important is the quality of the vinyl in the extension cord's insulation, if you have any intent to coil it up daily. The cheap cords are horribly stiff.
150 watts is not much power. Probably won't raise sump temperature ten degrees. In Craig,Colorado that heater wouldn't do squat on a cold winter day.
You need a Wolverine adhesive oil pan heater, get the pan good & clean, roughen it with coarse sandpaper or a wire brush to be sure it stays on (& improve heat transfer), I have a 1000 watt one on my 7.3 F-450 in my sig-between it & the factory block heater, I actually show heat on the temp gauge after 3 hours at 0F.
I don't think the OP said magnetic. It said, "stick on"
Double sided tape?
Originally Posted By: DriveHard
Oh yes, how are you guys getting a magnetic heater to stick to a cast aluminum oil pan???
Double sided tape?
Originally Posted By: DriveHard
Oh yes, how are you guys getting a magnetic heater to stick to a cast aluminum oil pan???
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Figure the specific heat of oil is 2kJ/kg*K
Figure 6 quarts of oil weighs 4 kg.
Figure the heater has to heat the ambient (poor insulation and no guard heater), and the metal, so efficacy is maybe 30ish%.
So 50W going in means 50J/sec.
Every 20 sec maybe 1kJ.
Need 8+ kJ to raise 1 Kelvin.
So 1K every 160 secs.
So after 1 hr around 20K, which is a factor of 9/5 so 38ishF? Seems about high but the engine thermal mass and losses are a total swag.
As it warms, delta T with ambient will increase so losses will go up until some steady state is obtained.
I'm scratching this at breakfast counter in a restaurant do someone can check my conversion and math.
6 quarts of oil is closer to 5 kg, so probably 20% less heat rise per hour than you calculations... didn't bother looking up te specific heat of oil (depends if it's PAO, gr V or dino anyway) but I'm sure the specific heat of the oil pan itself is 3 times higher than the oil it contains and could be another 3-5 kg...
Figure the specific heat of oil is 2kJ/kg*K
Figure 6 quarts of oil weighs 4 kg.
Figure the heater has to heat the ambient (poor insulation and no guard heater), and the metal, so efficacy is maybe 30ish%.
So 50W going in means 50J/sec.
Every 20 sec maybe 1kJ.
Need 8+ kJ to raise 1 Kelvin.
So 1K every 160 secs.
So after 1 hr around 20K, which is a factor of 9/5 so 38ishF? Seems about high but the engine thermal mass and losses are a total swag.
As it warms, delta T with ambient will increase so losses will go up until some steady state is obtained.
I'm scratching this at breakfast counter in a restaurant do someone can check my conversion and math.
6 quarts of oil is closer to 5 kg, so probably 20% less heat rise per hour than you calculations... didn't bother looking up te specific heat of oil (depends if it's PAO, gr V or dino anyway) but I'm sure the specific heat of the oil pan itself is 3 times higher than the oil it contains and could be another 3-5 kg...
I only have a block heater.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Figure the specific heat of oil is 2kJ/kg*K
Figure 6 quarts of oil weighs 4 kg.
Figure the heater has to heat the ambient (poor insulation and no guard heater), and the metal, so efficacy is maybe 30ish%.
So 50W going in means 50J/sec.
Every 20 sec maybe 1kJ.
Need 8+ kJ to raise 1 Kelvin.
So 1K every 160 secs.
So after 1 hr around 20K, which is a factor of 9/5 so 38ishF? Seems about high but the engine thermal mass and losses are a total swag.
As it warms, delta T with ambient will increase so losses will go up until some steady state is obtained.
I'm scratching this at breakfast counter in a restaurant do someone can check my conversion and math.
6 quarts of oil is closer to 5 kg, so probably 20% less heat rise per hour than you calculations... didn't bother looking up te specific heat of oil (depends if it's PAO, gr V or dino anyway) but I'm sure the specific heat of the oil pan itself is 3 times higher than the oil it contains and could be another 3-5 kg...
Close enough for the assumptions made.
I was headed for the surface areas to (guestimate) the surface area exposed to ambient, and work on the final temperature, and then do a gradient from there.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Figure the specific heat of oil is 2kJ/kg*K
Figure 6 quarts of oil weighs 4 kg.
Figure the heater has to heat the ambient (poor insulation and no guard heater), and the metal, so efficacy is maybe 30ish%.
So 50W going in means 50J/sec.
Every 20 sec maybe 1kJ.
Need 8+ kJ to raise 1 Kelvin.
So 1K every 160 secs.
So after 1 hr around 20K, which is a factor of 9/5 so 38ishF? Seems about high but the engine thermal mass and losses are a total swag.
As it warms, delta T with ambient will increase so losses will go up until some steady state is obtained.
I'm scratching this at breakfast counter in a restaurant do someone can check my conversion and math.
6 quarts of oil is closer to 5 kg, so probably 20% less heat rise per hour than you calculations... didn't bother looking up te specific heat of oil (depends if it's PAO, gr V or dino anyway) but I'm sure the specific heat of the oil pan itself is 3 times higher than the oil it contains and could be another 3-5 kg...
Close enough for the assumptions made.
I was headed for the surface areas to (guestimate) the surface area exposed to ambient, and work on the final temperature, and then do a gradient from there.
Quote:
I remember reading the packaging on some oil pan heaters and they say to put them on after you're done driving to "keep the oil temp up" I don't think they are designed to warm cold oil, only keep warm oil warm.
Bingo! The difference in performance between putting a pan heater on a hot or cold engine seems to be significant enough for manufacturers to mention this in their pan heater owners manuals (Kats). Also, putting them on the side of a pan below the oil line helps with the convection of the oil.
I remember reading the packaging on some oil pan heaters and they say to put them on after you're done driving to "keep the oil temp up" I don't think they are designed to warm cold oil, only keep warm oil warm.
Bingo! The difference in performance between putting a pan heater on a hot or cold engine seems to be significant enough for manufacturers to mention this in their pan heater owners manuals (Kats). Also, putting them on the side of a pan below the oil line helps with the convection of the oil.
Update
I only had time for a 1 hour test today. The starting oil temp was not low enough for my liking and the ambient temperature was increasing. I began with oil temp at 23 degrees. After 1 hour my oil temp was 64 degrees. I started the car and oil temperature dropped to 59 degrees after about 20 seconds and it stayed the same for about a minute. Then I began driving and oil temp began slowing increasing like it normally would do.
I did some reading online, this 4x5" heater gets to 200 degrees and has an adhesive metal surface that is made by 3M. Should transfer well. Next time I will feel the end of the dipstick and see if it's warm.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
With a pour point of < -54C, I don't think the lingering oil pressure light is due to the M1 0w40 oil. A couple of seconds is normal anyway, but with today computer-driven dashboards I've noticed that the dash rarely "boots" fast enough to show you start-up transients anyway. On some vehicles you can switch to accessory mode to "boot" the dash, then start and you can (maybe, if the dash doesn't go through its start up bulb-testing dance AGAIN) watch the actual oil pressure build time. Makes me long for the days of real gauges.
On start up you can see it go 0-5-7lbs..., that is normal. What I received was the big exclamation point and genie lamp warning on the display that I had no oil pressure. The only other time this happened to me was after switching to a larger style oil filter and not filling it prior to installation.
I only had time for a 1 hour test today. The starting oil temp was not low enough for my liking and the ambient temperature was increasing. I began with oil temp at 23 degrees. After 1 hour my oil temp was 64 degrees. I started the car and oil temperature dropped to 59 degrees after about 20 seconds and it stayed the same for about a minute. Then I began driving and oil temp began slowing increasing like it normally would do.
I did some reading online, this 4x5" heater gets to 200 degrees and has an adhesive metal surface that is made by 3M. Should transfer well. Next time I will feel the end of the dipstick and see if it's warm.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
With a pour point of < -54C, I don't think the lingering oil pressure light is due to the M1 0w40 oil. A couple of seconds is normal anyway, but with today computer-driven dashboards I've noticed that the dash rarely "boots" fast enough to show you start-up transients anyway. On some vehicles you can switch to accessory mode to "boot" the dash, then start and you can (maybe, if the dash doesn't go through its start up bulb-testing dance AGAIN) watch the actual oil pressure build time. Makes me long for the days of real gauges.
On start up you can see it go 0-5-7lbs..., that is normal. What I received was the big exclamation point and genie lamp warning on the display that I had no oil pressure. The only other time this happened to me was after switching to a larger style oil filter and not filling it prior to installation.
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
This car holds heat well, after sitting outside in cold windy weather for 6+ hours my oil and coolant temp haven't come down from the 40's yet. Maybe early morning will provide better numbers.
That was one thing that really surprised me when I first started really doing some of my own work on my car...get home from work at 6pm, check something, go back out at 11pm for a "cool" check and, man, this bugger is still hot!!
This car holds heat well, after sitting outside in cold windy weather for 6+ hours my oil and coolant temp haven't come down from the 40's yet. Maybe early morning will provide better numbers.
That was one thing that really surprised me when I first started really doing some of my own work on my car...get home from work at 6pm, check something, go back out at 11pm for a "cool" check and, man, this bugger is still hot!!
Last edited:
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Figure the specific heat of oil is 2kJ/kg*K
Figure 6 quarts of oil weighs 4 kg.
Figure the heater has to heat the ambient (poor insulation and no guard heater), and the metal, so efficacy is maybe 30ish%.
So 50W going in means 50J/sec.
Every 20 sec maybe 1kJ.
Need 8+ kJ to raise 1 Kelvin.
So 1K every 160 secs.
So after 1 hr around 20K, which is a factor of 9/5 so 38ishF? Seems about high but the engine thermal mass and losses are a total swag.
As it warms, delta T with ambient will increase so losses will go up until some steady state is obtained.
I'm scratching this at breakfast counter in a restaurant do someone can check my conversion and math.
6 quarts of oil is closer to 5 kg, so probably 20% less heat rise per hour than you calculations... didn't bother looking up te specific heat of oil (depends if it's PAO, gr V or dino anyway) but I'm sure the specific heat of the oil pan itself is 3 times higher than the oil it contains and could be another 3-5 kg...
Close enough for the assumptions made.
I was headed for the surface areas to (guestimate) the surface area exposed to ambient, and work on the final temperature, and then do a gradient from there.
Please do! I was waiting for my breakfast at a restaurant when I pulled my guess together.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Figure the specific heat of oil is 2kJ/kg*K
Figure 6 quarts of oil weighs 4 kg.
Figure the heater has to heat the ambient (poor insulation and no guard heater), and the metal, so efficacy is maybe 30ish%.
So 50W going in means 50J/sec.
Every 20 sec maybe 1kJ.
Need 8+ kJ to raise 1 Kelvin.
So 1K every 160 secs.
So after 1 hr around 20K, which is a factor of 9/5 so 38ishF? Seems about high but the engine thermal mass and losses are a total swag.
As it warms, delta T with ambient will increase so losses will go up until some steady state is obtained.
I'm scratching this at breakfast counter in a restaurant do someone can check my conversion and math.
6 quarts of oil is closer to 5 kg, so probably 20% less heat rise per hour than you calculations... didn't bother looking up te specific heat of oil (depends if it's PAO, gr V or dino anyway) but I'm sure the specific heat of the oil pan itself is 3 times higher than the oil it contains and could be another 3-5 kg...
Close enough for the assumptions made.
I was headed for the surface areas to (guestimate) the surface area exposed to ambient, and work on the final temperature, and then do a gradient from there.
Please do! I was waiting for my breakfast at a restaurant when I pulled my guess together.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
This car holds heat well, after sitting outside in cold windy weather for 6+ hours my oil and coolant temp haven't come down from the 40's yet. Maybe early morning will provide better numbers.
That was one thing that really surprised me when I first started really doing some of my own work on my car...get home from work at 6pm, check something, go back out at 11pm for a "cool" check and, man, this bugger is still hot!!
Depends on the car, my Accord goes cold after just a couple hours in the winter. I checked this morning and I was down to 14 degrees for oil temp. I turned the heater on, after 1 hour my oil temp was reading 49 degrees and the ambient temperature was unchanged. Looking forward to what hour 2 brings.
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
This car holds heat well, after sitting outside in cold windy weather for 6+ hours my oil and coolant temp haven't come down from the 40's yet. Maybe early morning will provide better numbers.
That was one thing that really surprised me when I first started really doing some of my own work on my car...get home from work at 6pm, check something, go back out at 11pm for a "cool" check and, man, this bugger is still hot!!
Depends on the car, my Accord goes cold after just a couple hours in the winter. I checked this morning and I was down to 14 degrees for oil temp. I turned the heater on, after 1 hour my oil temp was reading 49 degrees and the ambient temperature was unchanged. Looking forward to what hour 2 brings.
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