Been following the 0W/20 etc. saga...

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: cchase

Unfortunately 2 data points with no comparison to other viscosities is rather meaningless. I also think you're putting too much stock in "wear metal" readings in a single pass $20 UOA and trying to make a connection to increased wear.


I've seen some fantastic UOA's, but none of them have been with 20 weight
oils. Some of the best UOA's I've seen have been BMW's with 40 weights.


Then you just haven't looked enough. There are plenty of stellar UOAs with 5w20 and 0w20 oils in the UOA section. And there are some horrendous ones with 40-weight oils, too.

I'm not a big fan of going thinner than recommended, unless the engine has been back-spec'd to a thin oil. Thin-oil engines ususally have a lot of oil pump capacity, a large oil FLOW volume, and sometimes even depend on the low viscosity of the oil to make things like timing chain sprayers work correctly. Too *thick* of an oil in those engines may in fact do more harm than good, IMO. After watching an accurate (mechanical) oil pressure gauge on my Dodge 4.7, running 0w20 in the 113-degree heat while towing a travel trailer at 70 mph last summer, I'd *never* put a thick oil in that engine. The 0w20 hot idle oil pressure *never* wavered from how it behaves just driving around town un-loaded. That engine, like the Ford Modulars, is obviously very well-tailored to a 20-wt oil.






He is also forgetting that in many BMW's, like my S62, they have alumasil blocks. So since he's basing this "evidence" on UOA's (which is a horrible idea to begin with), and those engines have very little iron in them, he's going to see his desired low iron readings. And of course nobody runs a 20-weight oil in those engines (most run 40's) so he has subsequently created the ultimate strawman.

 

[lexus114]

Great picture of the scarecrow! Classic movie.

 

[Jeff_in_VABch]

Originally Posted By: Bayman
Since you live in Florida, I would stick with 5W-30, just do not see the need for 0W-20


+1

Unless you want to see that thing pop like a flash bulb.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: Bayman
Since you live in Florida, I would stick with 5W-30, just do not see the need for 0W-20

+1
Unless you want to see that thing pop like a flash bulb.

Well that's nonsense.
The advantages of a high VI 20wt oil (the spec' oil BTW) are not restricted to cold climates.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: Bayman
Since you live in Florida, I would stick with 5W-30, just do not see the need for 0W-20


+1

Unless you want to see that thing pop like a flash bulb.


I do not understand that statement, 0W is better in all climates! This is why i need to be talked into buying a 5W, is because 0W exists. My exception is Supertech 5W-20.. i will buy that. Anything else, i can probably find something lighter as the 0W number though i have used ST 10W-40 with success, even in a colder winter.

The 0W, 5W, 10W saga fa r overshadows the legitimate use of 20-weight oils. Even a 10W can get the job done.. but unless you are in a 40-weight grade or above, it doesnt make sense to use anything higher than a 5W. Again, 0W is my favorite though conventional 5W-20 ST i am "ok with."

Please explain how "it will poplike a flash bulb." 1) What is "it?" 2" What will "pop?" 3) Ehy will this happen? Answer to all three: It wont.

You can run 0W in Phoenix, AZ at noon on the 4th of Huly with 100% humidity if there is humidity in Phoenix idk and it will be better flow than a 5W. Though a 0W, 5W, or 10W would be ok. 0W would be "best." In a hot climate you COULD use a 15W or 20W.. but with the oil out today, thats fairly stupid. 10W max........

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
[
Running an oil too thin in most street applications is more difficult to do than you'd think. Running a HTHSV 2.6cP 20wt oil where a 30wt is specified won't do it, even when a 40wt specified still won't do it unless the oil temp's are well above normal. The reason is, oil temp's rarely hit even a 100C let alone exceed it in most applications and that's not even braking a sweat for a 20wt oil.
Could you run a 1.7cP HTHSV 0W-5? No problem, just keep the oil temp's below 85C and bearing wiping won't happen but the safety margin wilol be zero. And that's what it's all about, safety margin. What happens if the cheap oil you buy shears 25%, and you're down a couple of quarts, and the engine has an injector problem resulting in big fuel dilution and the engine over heats because of a coolant leak? That's why you need a big safety margin and is also why it is so easy to run a very light oil when everything is perfect.


Very well said! Like you, I proved this concept to myself watching oil temp and oil pressure for the past three years.


I agree with you guys. However the problem is you'll never convince the 20 grade haters, that the oil is good no matter what.

 

[HTSS_TR]

It's not hater, it's more like skeptic.

I tried xW20 in my E430 3 years ago by accident. I don't remember how I got two(2) 5-qt jugs PP 5W20, when I change oil in spring 2008 the engine was making low noise, it was like diesel engine.

I usually use the oldest oil in my stash, the 2 PP 5W20 jugs was older than anything else. I took a gamble, thinking that if the noise getting worse with this thin oil then get it out and replace with M1 0W40, try it for few miles.

It turned out to be the right choice for that engine. The engine noise was reduced almost as soon as I started the engine.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
...
It turned out to be the right choice for that engine. The engine noise was reduced almost as soon as I started the engine.
Man that musta been a BAAAaad oil if the engine was knocking with the key off

 

[ARCOgraphite]

My ford engine is toast on 5w-20. It's only got 6K miles and rapping like XZBit... Combo of bad coil and ??? Dealer wont touch it untill it breaks. Fuel mileage is down to 22 from averaging 27-30.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

HTHS and sump temp are two different animals. You can can break down the film behind a piston in a HTHS scenario and the oil will dump into the relatively cold sump and recover somewhat. But, Soon as you go into boundary lubrication you are about to break something - SNAP! High load + RPM stressor can kill an engine even with moderate sumps temps if the oil has poor HTHS rating (and poor inherent lubricity). Every single one of our recent engines has been ruined with marginal ILSAC oils and garbage fuel. If hope the new forester doesnt grenade. I bet it will as soon as I am forced to run GF-5 Idemitsu unless they got some real special sauce up their sleeve.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
It's not hater, it's more like skeptic.

I tried xW20 in my E430 3 years ago by accident. I don't remember how I got two(2) 5-qt jugs PP 5W20, when I change oil in spring 2008 the engine was making low noise, it was like diesel engine.

I usually use the oldest oil in my stash, the 2 PP 5W20 jugs was older than anything else. I took a gamble, thinking that if the noise getting worse with this thin oil then get it out and replace with M1 0W40, try it for few miles.

It turned out to be the right choice for that engine. The engine noise was reduced almost as soon as I started the engine.


You mix 2 qts PP 5W20 with 3qts M1 0W-40 for the E430? What is its oil capacity?

How does that work out. ? Does it make the car run perfect?

Asking so if i ever get an E430 i know what to do! I heard of a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid guy putting either 2 or 3 quarts Royal Purple 0W-10 in with the remainder 0W-20 and it making a huge diff for the better

 

[ltslimjim]

^He was saying he used PP 5w-20 only; with the thought of using M1 0w-40 IF the noise he was hearing prior to the oil change remained or got worse. After the change, draining another Xx-20 something oil(that he couldn't recall), the noise went away. So he has been using that apparently.

 

[HTSS_TR]

The sump capacity of the E430 is 8.5 quarts. I had 2 PP 5W20 jugs and they were older than other oil I had in my stash in 2008 that why I used it, also the engine was making noise for a couple years, I was trying to see if thinner oil will cure the noise.

I had been using various xW20 in the E430 since then, the engine is much quieter than with M1 0W40. I can not say it runs perfect, but I can say it is better with thinner oil. Throttle response is much quicker, gas mileage went up about 3-5% from 21-21.5 MPG to 22-22.5 MPG with similar driving conditions. Coolant temperature went down about 10-15F on highway, it was 195-205F and it is around 185-190F now, the OEM thermostat is 188F (87C). It is a little unusual that the engine doesn't consume any oil with either xW20 or with 0W40, even with 80-90 MPH to/from Vegas in summer and winter.

If you get an E430 you need to monitor the engine conditions with recommended grade which is M1 0W40, then try thinner oil but need to monitor your engine to be sure it is okay.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My ford engine is toast on 5w-20. It's only got 6K miles and rapping like XZBit... Combo of bad coil and ??? Dealer wont touch it untill it breaks. Fuel mileage is down to 22 from averaging 27-30.


You should stick to bicycles. You've destroyed more cars than hurricane Katrina.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My ford engine is toast on 5w-20. It's only got 6K miles and rapping like XZBit... Combo of bad coil and ??? Dealer wont touch it untill it breaks. Fuel mileage is down to 22 from averaging 27-30.


You should stick to bicycles. You've destroyed more cars than hurricane Katrina.


LOL + 1

 

[Cooper]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
My ford engine is toast on 5w-20. It's only got 6K miles and rapping like XZBit... Combo of bad coil and ??? Dealer wont touch it untill it breaks. Fuel mileage is down to 22 from averaging 27-30.


You should stick to bicycles. You've destroyed more cars than hurricane Katrina.


That is funny right there......

 

[Jeff_in_VABch]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: vintageant

In light of the original spec, yet the newer thinking, what think ye about changing to a thinner oil?


Keep plenty of extra money in the bank for a new engine.


Is there evidence to support this statement?


Are you nuts? There are so many Toyota engine failures it's crazy to take chances with these engines. And the dealer is 100% certain to deny the warranty unless you have all service work done there.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

 

[Jeff_in_VABch]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: Bayman
Since you live in Florida, I would stick with 5W-30, just do not see the need for 0W-20


+1

Unless you want to see that thing pop like a flash bulb.


The 0W, 5W, 10W saga fa r overshadows the legitimate use of 20-weight oils. Even a 10W can get the job done.. but unless you are in a 40-weight grade or above, it doesnt make sense to use anything higher than a 5W. Again, 0W is my favorite though conventional 5W-20 ST i am "ok with."

Please explain how "it will poplike a flash bulb." 1) What is "it?" 2" What will "pop?" 3) Ehy will this happen? Answer to all three: It wont.


"Owners are very concerned about the safety of these vehicles. Some engines are seizing at highway speeds. There are owner reports of engine compartment fires after the engine throws a rod through the engine block."

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

 

[Samilcar]

That petition concerns the 3.0 liter Toyota "sludgemonster" engines. The design of that engine made it more prone to sludge, especially with longer oil change intervals. The weight of the motor oil used had nothing to do with those sludging failures.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: Bayman
Since you live in Florida, I would stick with 5W-30, just do not see the need for 0W-20


+1

Unless you want to see that thing pop like a flash bulb.


The 0W, 5W, 10W saga fa r overshadows the legitimate use of 20-weight oils. Even a 10W can get the job done.. but unless you are in a 40-weight grade or above, it doesnt make sense to use anything higher than a 5W. Again, 0W is my favorite though conventional 5W-20 ST i am "ok with."

Please explain how "it will poplike a flash bulb." 1) What is "it?" 2" What will "pop?" 3) Ehy will this happen? Answer to all three: It wont.


"Owners are very concerned about the safety of these vehicles. Some engines are seizing at highway speeds. There are owner reports of engine compartment fires after the engine throws a rod through the engine block."

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html


Irrelevant. That's a sludge problem, not a thin oil problem.