Banks says "turbo coking" is a myth, sort of...

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http://www.bankspower.com/tech_TD-fact-Fiction.cfm

Here is the story:

Turbo-Diesel Fact & Fiction

Exposing some of the misconceptions and outright lies about today’s diesel engines.

By C.J. Baker

Today’s diesel engines are saddled with a lot of myths and misinformation. In all fairness, some of the bad rap was justly deserved in recent years, but the new generation of clean turbo-diesel engines for light trucks and motorhomes bears little in common with those of just a few years ago – it’s not your Granddaddy’s diesel anymore!

Clean diesel technology may well win out over alternative fuel vehicles, such as those that use compressed natural gas (CNG), hybrid, or even fuel cell technologies. Clean diesel designs will cost less to produce and buy, operate more cost effectively, and won’t require a completely new fueling infrastructure. The World Wide Web offers a wealth of information on this topic. Just use the search words, “clean diesel”. Does this mean everyone will drive diesels? Hardly, but the acceptance of diesels will increase to the point that light duty diesels may account for over 15 percent of the vehicles on the roads of America. In western Europe, diesels now make up 30+ percent of the vehicle population, with some experts predicting the percentage may rise as high as 50 percent in the next few years. Tax incentives for diesel-powered vehicles would hasten acceptance here, as they did in Europe. Clean, modern diesel technology could change the negative aura surrounding SUVs, for example.

Some old perceptions about diesels will die hard, especially in a country where gasoline has always been relatively inexpensive. Forward thinking people, however, have been quick to see the economic advantages of diesels, particularly in relation to our growing dependence on foreign oil and the instability of the world oil market. The potential 40+ percent fuel economy increase from diesels is hard to ignore. In response, diesel engineers have made huge progress in eliminating the problems associated with diesels. Here are examples:

MYTH #1
Diesel engines are smoky and dirty.

FACT
Diesel smoke is comprised of soot from unburned or partially burned fuel. Modern computerized fuel control and management coupled with ultra-high-pressure common rail fuel injection have virtually eliminated diesel smoke. What little smoke remains is nearly invisible, and even that trace smoke will be gone when the petroleum industry switches over to ultra low sulfur fuel, as mandated by the EPA by 2006. As for dirty, no smoke means no soot, and no soot means no dirt.

MYTH #2
Diesel exhaust smells bad.

FACT
The smell associated with diesel engines in the past came from incomplete combustion, smoke, and high sulfur content in diesel fuel. As mentioned above, electronic fuel management has dramatically improved combustion and nearly eliminated smoke. Today’s diesels won’t offend most folks, and when the sulfur goes, even those people with sensitive noses will be hard pressed to honestly object.

MYTH #3
Diesels have to be noisy, especially at idle.

FACT
There used to be a lot of truth to this statement, but new diesels with a feature called “pilot injection” have virtually eliminated the clattering sound associated with diesel engines. Many of these diesels are so quiet that it takes an educated ear to recognize that the engine is a diesel when it goes by or is stopped at a stoplight. Unfortunately, there are enough noisy older diesels on the road to sustain this myth for some time.

MYTH #4
Diesel are slow and sluggish.

FACT
All new automotive, light truck and motorhome diesel engines sold in America today are turbocharged. These turbo-diesels are responsive and powerful. They are capable of accelerating quickly, and they have high-torque output for climbing grades or sustained high-speed operation. Today’s turbo-diesels also are responsive to performance upgrades that make their performance nothing short of incredible. (see ”Project Sidewinder Goes to the Salt”)

The following are a few additional “tall tales” that occasionally arise:

MYTH #5
You should occasionally mix a gallon of gasoline with a tankful of diesel fuel to clean the fuel injectors and remove carbon from the cylinders.

FACT
Don’t do it! Gasoline, even in low concentrations, destroys the lubricity of diesel fuel and can quickly destroy the diesel’s expensive fuel injection pump. Gas in diesel fuel also increases the combustion temperature and can actually damage the expensive fuel injection nozzles. And lastly, today’s diesel fuel does not gum up fuel injectors, or build carbon deposit in the cylinders as was sometimes the case many years ago.
Don’t ever mix gasoline, or alcohol, with diesel fuel.

MYTH #6
You have to go to a truck stop to buy diesel fuel.

FACT
With the popularity of diesel pickup trucks and SUVs, more and more gasoline stations are now adding diesel fuel pumps. This trend will continue as diesel popularity grows. But, yes, you can buy diesel fuel at a truck stop if want to, and besides, you can buy great country music CDs while you’re there!

MYTH #7
You have to let a turbo-diesel idle for two minutes before you shut it off.

FACT
This is a current myth that has a basis of fact stemming from many years ago. It also has a kernel of truth regarding today’s turbocharged gasoline engines that operate at higher peak exhaust temperatures than turbo-diesels. In the early days of turbochargers, the turbo shaft was supported by a babbitt bearing that could seize, or even melt, if the engine was shut off immediately after sustained boost conditions where the turbocharger would “heat soak”. A two minute cool down at idle allowed the turbocharger to dissipate any remaining spinning inertia, and the oil circulation cooled the bearing and prevented oil “coking” in the bearing area. Turbochargers haven’t used babbitt bearings for over 30 years, and today’s oils resist coking. Synthetic oils won’t coke, period. With a turbocharged gas engine, it’s still good insurance to let the engine idle for 30 seconds to a minute to allow the turbo or turbos to dissipate any inertia and to cool the bearing area to prevent oil coking, especially if the engine has been worked hard just prior to shut-down. Of course, using quality synthetic oil eliminates this potential coking problem.

Today’s turbo-diesels are a different story. There is really no reason to “cool down” a turbo-diesel these days, but you won’t hurt anything by doing it either. You can still find people who swear you have to do it, but the myth is fading. Maybe they just like to sit and listen to the radio.

MYTH #8
You can’t use synthetic oil in a diesel.

FACT
Synthetic oils can be, and are, used in many diesel engines. Every engine manufacturer has specific oil recommendations, and as long as the synthetic oil meets the API rating recommended for that engine, it is acceptable. For most light-duty truck diesels, this means a minimum of API CF or CD. Some folks think synthetic oils will void the warranty on a turbo-diesel, but again, if the oil has the correct API rating, no problem. If you’re still in doubt, read your manufacturer’s warranty. It’s a contract between you and the manufacturer.

MYTH #9
Diesel fuel has less heat energy than gasoline.

FACT
Diesel fuel has almost 11 percent more heat energy than gasoline. A typical gallon of gasoline has about 124,800 BTU, whereas a typical gallon of #2 diesel has about 138,700 BTU.

MYTH #10
Diesels are hard to start in cold weather.

FACT
Diesel fuel is less volatile than gasoline, and wax crystals can begin to form in diesel fuel at lower temperatures, so it’s true that many diesels have starting problems in cold weather (below freezing temperatures). Happily, modern diesels with common rail injection and pilot injection have starting capabilities equal to gasoline engines at temperatures as cold as -40º F. Many diesels also feature fuel heaters to prevent wax crystal formation. The use of synthetic oils also helps diesels crank over in cold weather. This is just one more area where diesels have changed for the better.

MYTH #11
A diesel engine will run under water.

FACT
This isn’t completely a myth. Like any internal combustion engine, a diesel needs access to fresh air in order to run. It must also have water-free fuel and be able to easily expel exhaust gases. If these conditions are met, technically a diesel could run under water, assuming its fuel management computer and wiring harness is watertight, and some military vehicles with raised air intakes and exhausts can run under shallow water. On the other hand, it’s probably not a good idea to drive your diesel pickup through a river, pond, lake, creek, or the municipal swimming pool no matter how logical the idea seems at the time!
 
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synthetics won't coke period.
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I hope Banks products are better than the article.
 
For most light-duty truck diesels, this means a minimum of API CF or CD.

My 95 Ford PSD requires a min rating of CG and CF can be used if necessary, only with the addition of an anti-foam agent.

I personally think Gale Banks is one of the most knowledgeable persons in the U.S. on diesel engines and components. I think his marketing and customer service department are one of the worst in the business. JMO.

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Havent had any coking issues with Delo/Delvac and the turbo diesels I have owned over the years either.
 
Too bad when someone exaderates he lessens credibility in general. I have personally seen babbit bearings on turbos of the late 80's and the 90's that have been destroyed by tunring off the engine without cooling.
As for cold weather, if the fuel gels from the wind-chill between the tank and the engine, where does heating it up again help. Specialized vehicles may have insulated lines, but the general vehicles aren't designed that way.
You can drive them underwater up to the point of the air intake or any leaks in the air intake or fues box. But once you get water in the air intake, it fills the cylinders, obviously does not compress, and will bend rods and destroy the engine, so there is some risk. (been there, done that).
But I still have 5 diesels, and love them.
 
They should update their old info...CD engine oil was obsolete in 1987. CF is still a current spec...for engines burning fuel with over ½% sulfur--very unlikely these days.


Ken
 
Widman raises a very good point, turbo rebuilding is huge business here in India, ever since the government went strict here with pollution norms, most manufacturers of commercial and passenger vehicles have converted their normally aspirated engines to turbo, this has led to a cottage industry of sorts of turbo rebuilds, out here, especially for a trucker who is trying to extract maximum profit, all they ever put is Castrol CD rated CRB, mostly single weight 40 in summers. Then they would overload it to 45% of the rated capacity and stretch the oil and that too in 45C weather in summers. Final blow comes as they have a habit of revving the engine and then shutting it down, thats all the poor turbo needs to cook itself to death.
 
what I would like to know, and I think I will call Banks and ask, is why the redline for exhaust gas temp (EGT) on typical light duty diesels is about 1200F at the turbo, or pre-turbo, when for gasoline turbo engines the EGT is much higher than that, 1400-1600F I believe is the norm? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if not then why don't all turbo's on gas powered engines like the little 4-cylinders that run hot and oftentimes have videos with exhaust manifolds glowing red not melt their turbos? Or is the 1200F redline for diesels a myth too?

I tend to agree with most of the Banks myth/fact statement except for the synthetic never coking. I would like to add one more myth/fact:

MYTH: diesel power is more economical than gasoline power;

FACT: yes theoretically, but the way things really work is price gouging. If diesel power will be the norm then the cost of owning and maintaining one will be astonomical, and tax on it will increase. Diesel here in New England is well over $2 gallon currently, and much higher than 93 octange gas currently and has been such for a while. I'll stick with my camaro v-8 for now, rated 19/27 mpg vs. driving my '89 F250 7.3L which will get at best 16 mpg but at $2.35 gallon diesel
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And reports I read on the latest trucks, they're not getting much better, 20 mpg at most unloaded and trying hard. Heck, many of the new 6L fords are problematic and getting < 15 mpg anyway. Add the $5000 charge for the diesel engine plus maintenance and you're not making out any better.
I'm not familiar with the specs on the Volkswagon with the diesel, I understand it gets close to 40mpg, but I'm sure there's a hefty price getting that option with that car just like for American trucks, and I'm sure maintenance and parts costs for it are higher because "it's a diesel".

And you think diesel is expensive now, wait till 2006 when it's offically low-sulfur diesel. We're going to see some real fuel issues then in this country.
 
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I live in Saskatchewan Canada, last winter diesel was .50 litre (one litre close to American quart), gas was .90 litre) I could then drive my 92 Dodge Cummin Diesel for less money than my 03 Nissan Altima on gas which got 36 miles per gallon winter, 41 mpg summer (Can gallons).

This year I drive a Nissan X-Trail and at breakin gets 30 mpg winter now. Gas and diesel are basically equal in price now. I get about 24 mpg on Cummins, considering my Cummin is a full size 3/4 ton super cab truck, -6 miles per gallon is not bad but we do find ourselves using the Nissan more at 30 per gallon.

The savings on diesel really shows now for me in summer, my other work truck a Ford one ton gets 14 miles gallon Can summer when I use it, the 92 Cummins gets around 26-28 summer, that is good saving even when prices of diesel and gas the same.

The gap on diesel and gas has closed up here too, last year was a gift at .40 litre less for diesel, I was getting 40 mpg on dollar with my 92 Dodge Cummins, not this year, diesel is still go deal for my applications but nowhere near where it was a year ago.

(remember a Canadian gallon is 20% larger than American gallon, there are 4.54 litres in Canadian gallon, litre is pretty close to quart)
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Cyprs
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1 FMF:

I'm not familiar with the specs on the Volkswagon with the diesel, I understand it gets close to 40mpg, but I'm sure there's a hefty price getting that option with that car just like for American trucks, and I'm sure maintenance and parts costs for it are higher because "it's a diesel".


This is my first post. I've been lurking for awhile. I have 2 diesels. A '97 f350 and a '00 VW TDI. I've never owned a gas vehical.

The VW TDI gets close to 50mpg in a perfect world. I have come very close to that on road trips. The TDI is an $800 option vs the $5k option on trucks. It is almost the same engine with better parts and a turbo. Parts aren't much more expensive. Dealer recommended OCI is 10k. Glow plugs are about $100 every 50k and a fuel filter is $25 every 20k. That is the only routine maintenance that it requires. After 85k miles, it has been relatively trouble free.

I agree with your analysis of diesel prices. They are fast approaching $3 a gallon in the NW.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1 FMF:
MYTH: diesel power is more economical than gasoline power;

It all depends on how you define "economical." Diesel does cost less figured in cost per ton-mile.


Ken
 
I own a MAN marine Diesel engine shop, our current engines are all high pressure common Rail with pilot injection programs, our engines are; 800 HP I-6 through 1800 HP v-12
First we have been required to use crankcase oils that meet their 277 spec, that boils down in practice to Mobil Delvac 1 a full synthetic oil, experience has shown to be an incredible oil, silver colored valves on disassembly instead of black varnished valves and guides, we have no oil turbo problems with 2 to 3 bar boost (depending on model). I am trying Mobil 1 in my 2001Acura MDX (100kmi) but using delvac1 in my Nissan Patrol turbo intercooled diesel only (with bypass filter)
I am new here and intent on learning from you all about other oils, but MAN Diesel is convinced that synthetic oils are ok in diesels and their turbos
Our most recent oil API specs are CJ-4 Delvac 1ESP With a lesser Zinc PAC for Cat converter equipped trucks, our newest engines have roller lifters, I am trying to use only earlier oils with zinc in the 1200ppm range for our earlier "classic" engins with flat tappets, but first I must convince importers and customers of the details!
 
Actually my batch of Delvac 1 SHC (one of the oils that meets MAN 3277) has 1159ppm zinc on virgin analysis. 1059 ppm P, 3900ppm Ca, ~250ppm boron.

Charlie
 
My 2014 Ford F550 (6.7 Powerstroke) manual says to allow turbo to cool down (2 minutes) before shutdown. Even though I use synthetics, I still let the turbo cool down to around 350F before engine shut off. Ford seems to imply potential for coking or maybe they recommend cool down for another reason?
 
Synthetic oils [GPIII types] these days aren't much better than todays conventional oils . With the turbo temps running up to 1200*f or more the difference between the syn and conventional oils are minimal . 50*F at the most.
 
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