AW vs. EP??

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Just trying to get a handle on how these oil additives interact with each other, and what exactly is happening on the surface.

According to what I have read, AW (ZDDP for example) forms an ablative layer on the metal surfaces to protect the metal under non-EP conditions, but where hydrodynamic lubrication breaks down and boundary conditions occur.

EP adds (Moly for example) is similar, but kicks in when loads become well...extreme, and the EP ablative layer on the mating surfaces shear away instead of the base metal.

How do these interact? Are AW coatings "taller" than EP coatings therefore buffering contact surfaces under less than EP forces? I assume that AW films are stripped away first when EP conditions are met, and then the EP coating is engaged? Why wouldn't EP coatings be enough since they seem to the same thing only better?

Also, there is only so much surface area on any given metal surface, so do these compounds compete for space? When you add polar esters to the mix, this question seems to become even more complicated. Will the esters "stick" to the surface through all the ablative layers that have been built up? Add in corrosion inhibitors and the complexity factor goes up yet again.

Metal surfaces of course are not smooth at the microscopic level. What effect does this have on the ablative coatings? The main page on this board shows that moly has somewhat of a "filler" property to even out the asperities on the metal surface (which should increase base oil film strength), does that mean that AW coating are only effective at the "peaks" of the asperities?

Lots of questions I know, but after months of reading this board and elsewhere, I have not found answers to these questions. Any insight by people "in the know" would be appreciated.
 
I too would be interested in learning about the competitive adsorption behavior of the various additives and basestocks in a fully formulated motor oil. It may be too complex a system to characterize fully, but there should be some information that exists.

JMH
 
I'm sure bruce and/or Molakule would be able to answer that. Some good questions, just wish I could help you out other than pointing you to who would be able to
grin.gif
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quote:

In case you haven't seen these posts by MolaKule...

Thanks for the links. Actually, I have read those articles (though it has been a while), and they are (along with other reading) actually part of the reason I asked this question.

Just not sure exactly (in geometric terms) what is happening on the metal surface.
 
OK before the VO kicks in I'll give you my take on this


quote:

Originally posted by Tempest:
Just trying to get a handle on how these oil additives interact with each other, and what exactly is happening on the surface.

According to what I have read, AW (ZDDP for example) forms an ablative layer on the metal surfaces to protect the metal under non-EP conditions, but where hydrodynamic lubrication breaks down and boundary conditions occur.

.....Correct where the asperities break through the oil film and rub the AW additive will reduce the weilding and friction/wear.


EP adds (Moly for example) is similar, but kicks in when loads become well...extreme, and the EP ablative layer on the mating surfaces shear away instead of the base metal.

....Correct when the oil film ruptures and AW will no longer reduce weilding then EP or more correctly Anti Scuff additives will come into play they have a thicker film than AW.


How do these interact? Are AW coatings "taller" than EP coatings therefore buffering contact surfaces under less than EP forces? I assume that AW films are stripped away first when EP conditions are met, and then the EP coating is engaged? Why wouldn't EP coatings be enough since they seem to the same thing only better?

....EP or Anti Scuff additives form a thicker more tenacious layer but also take a higher friction or heat load to "activate"and thus work only in a certain range of friction/heat. Basicly FM or fatty esters work at low temps to reduce friction then as friction heat increase AW additives will "take" over when the loads and friction/heat rise to high for the AW additives then the EP or more correctly Anti Scuff additives will become active, kinda like a long
distance relay race with each additives handing off to the next guy when they run out a gas

Also, there is only so much surface area on any given metal surface, so do these compounds compete for space? When you add polar esters to the mix, this question seems to become even more complicated. Will the esters "stick" to the surface through all the ablative layers that have been built up? Add in corrosion inhibitors and the complexity factor goes up yet again.

....Yes some addiitves and some esters compete for the metal surface and if in conflict will mess up the wear protection.

Metal surfaces of course are not smooth at the microscopic level. What effect does this have on the ablative coatings? The main page on this board shows that moly has somewhat of a "filler" property to even out the asperities on the metal surface (which should increase base oil film strength), does that mean that AW coating are only effective at the "peaks" of the asperities?

.....All AW/FM/Anti scuff additves work on the asperities since that is what rubs if no rubbing you are in a hydrodynamic regime and AW/EP will not work FM Will I think tho.

Lots of questions I know, but after months of reading this board and elsewhere, I have not found answers to these questions. Any insight by people "in the know" would be appreciated.


...Bruce
 
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