Avgas 100/130 sellers?

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I buy 100LL fuel for my quad because it likes the higher octane, and the valves love the lead. But I just read that the older 100/130 (green dyed) fuel has double the lead of 100LL, and is still for sell in Utah and Hawaii. Does anyone know where I might find a list of what Utah airports might have this stuff for sale?
 
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Originally Posted By: kawie_guy
I buy 100LL fuel for my quad because it likes the higher octane, and the valves love the lead. But I just read that the older 100/130 (green dyed) fuel has double the lead of 100LL, and is still for sell in Utah and Hawaii. Does anyone know where I might find a list of what Utah airports might have this stuff for sale?
I hear this a lot with leaded fuel. How exactly do the valves, "love lead"?
 
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Valve seat lubrication...when it was phased out, valves recessed in their heads. Yes, modern engines have hardened seats, so far less need.
 
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Does anyone know of any ATV/UTV or motorcycle that have had issues with their valves burning due to no lead in the fuel? No one? Thought so. Even lawn equipment like commercial mowers that run just about 7 days a week 10 hr days at full throttle. You don't hear anything with their valves going bad. But if it makes one feel good that is all that matters.
 
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I had a Cub Cadet 108 with a Koehler motor that would burn up the exhaust valve regularly until I installed a stellite exhaust valve. Only happened after ethanol fuel was all that I could find.
 
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You can go to airnav.com to find avgas near you. I don’t think there is a filter to find 100/130 on the website though. I haven’t seen 100/130 (green dye) for at least 20 years. From my recollection, leaded automotive gasoline from the 1980’s had about 0.1 mL of lead per gallon of gas. 80/87 octane avgas had about 0.5 mL of tetraethyl lead per gallon, 100LL avgas (blue dye) has about 2mL of TEL/ gallon and finally 100/130 had about 4mL TEL/gallon. From my own experience, when 100/130 was still around, I used to avoid it because the high lead content would foul the spark plugs with globs of lead on the plugs of my low compression (7:1) Continental A65 engine. Even today, one can still foul the plugs with 100LL if one idles the engine too slowly at a rich mixture for too long. The real reason to use 100LL for me is the stability of the gasoline. Any avgas has to be stable and combustible for at least one year. I use avgas to store seasonal machines so that I don’t have problems with varnish, phase separation and all the other problems with automotive gasoline. The high octane never seems to hurt anything. Another thing I like about avgas is the addition of heptane, which apparently helps the fuel vaporize at low temperature without causing vapor lock at high temperatures. Cold starts will be better with avgas. Airplanes don’t have chokes.. Be sure to let us know if you find 100/130. You will get the sleuthing award if you do find it.
 

kawie_guy

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Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: kawie_guy
I buy 100LL fuel for my quad because it likes the higher octane, and the valves love the lead. But I just read that the older 100/130 (green dyed) fuel has double the lead of 100LL, and is still for sell in Utah and Hawaii. Does anyone know where I might find a list of what Utah airports might have this stuff for sale?
I hear this a lot with leaded fuel. How exactly do the valves, "love lead"?
Lead lubricates and cushions valve seats very well.
 

kawie_guy

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Originally Posted By: Rat407
Does anyone know of any ATV/UTV or motorcycle that have had issues with their valves burning due to no lead in the fuel? No one? Thought so. Even lawn equipment like commercial mowers that run just about 7 days a week 10 hr days at full throttle. You don't hear anything with their valves going bad. But if it makes one feel good that is all that matters.
Well you're quick to dismiss the possibility! As it turns out, my year and make of atv is notorious for eating up valves. The maker was sent a batch of valves that were later discovered to be sub standard Rockwell scale for hardness. By the time it was realized, they were already in several thousand units. I got one, and the valve adjustment period was substantially lengthened when I used leaded gasoline. I have since replaced those bad valves with good ones, but I continue to run leaded avgas for insurance. Plus, I've upped my compression considerably from stock ratio, and avgas is cheaper around here than race fuel.
 
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kawie_guy

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Originally Posted By: frankbee3
You can go to airnav.com to find avgas near you. I don’t think there is a filter to find 100/130 on the website though. I haven’t seen 100/130 (green dye) for at least 20 years. From my recollection, leaded automotive gasoline from the 1980’s had about 0.1 mL of lead per gallon of gas. 80/87 octane avgas had about 0.5 mL of tetraethyl lead per gallon, 100LL avgas (blue dye) has about 2mL of TEL/ gallon and finally 100/130 had about 4mL TEL/gallon. From my own experience, when 100/130 was still around, I used to avoid it because the high lead content would foul the spark plugs with globs of lead on the plugs of my low compression (7:1) Continental A65 engine. Even today, one can still foul the plugs with 100LL if one idles the engine too slowly at a rich mixture for too long. The real reason to use 100LL for me is the stability of the gasoline. Any avgas has to be stable and combustible for at least one year. I use avgas to store seasonal machines so that I don’t have problems with varnish, phase separation and all the other problems with automotive gasoline. The high octane never seems to hurt anything. Another thing I like about avgas is the addition of heptane, which apparently helps the fuel vaporize at low temperature without causing vapor lock at high temperatures. Cold starts will be better with avgas. Airplanes don’t have chokes.. Be sure to let us know if you find 100/130. You will get the sleuthing award if you do find it.
Great info! Thank you. Wikipedia says the green dyed 100/130 is available here in Utah. Its probably sold at one of our small airports near our famous National Parks. They run lots of the older piston driven planes for sightseeing purposes. I just need to find where. I checked the Moab airport outside Canyonlands and Arches a few weeks ago, but it was definitely dyed blue.
 
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: kawie_guy
Lead lubricates and cushions valve seats very well.
Do they need it?
The answer is maybe. Today's high performance 4 stroke motocross bikes, especially the small ones operate at insane RPM's and pound the valves and seats without mercy. Quite often both the head and valves are scrap in short order due to the high RPM operation. Some of these guys are running 250's over 16,000 RPM! Leaded gas helps with valve and seat life. The pounding they take is quite evident. The problem is that while these are small engines, they have large diameter pistons and valves. [img]https://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/290083/[/img]
 
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Our knowledge about gasolines hasn't made much progress if we suggest our engines need lead because primary use of tetraethyl lead was knock or detonation control but modern engines such as your quad are engineer to meet and exceed mileage expectations on lead free fuels... running leaded AvGas will not only drain your wallet needlessly but also add yellowish lead deposits to your spark plugs and combustion chamber... besides being a health risk lead is a high maintenance additive... *************************************************************** THE STORY HOW LEAD GOT INTO OUR GAS... The story how lead got into our fuels started with high compression aircraft engines back in 1921... a young engineer fresh out of college named Charles Kettering started Dayton Engineering Labs Company or Delco... he invented the first battery ignition systems for aircraft engines... when protagonists in the field of aviation widely blamed his battery ignition systems on knock or detonation Kettering commanded his young assistant Thomas A. Midgley on a investigation of detonation. motivated as much by a desire to protect Delco's reputation as by scientific altruism. Midgley worked for months over his single cylinder engine and famous "bouncing pin" which was devised to measure differences in detonation pressures. and he soon determined that detonation depended on both fuel grade and engine compression ratio. Thinking at first that fuel color influenced knock. Midgley added iodine to his fuel theorizing a dark-colored fuel would absorb more heat energy and vaporize more quickly. When the knock diminished he smelled success, but it did not come in the form . he suspected. Further experiments forced him to discard the fuel color idea but led in turn to a long. frustrating line of trial anti-knock additives. GM. parent company of Delco. encouraged Midgley and his assistant T. A. Boyd. who in a vigorous program, individually tested more than 30,000 compounds and their discouragement mounted with the list. On December 9, 1921. a chilly Friday. Midgley and Boyd were anticipating the weekend's respite from their series of relentless, routine tests when suddenly the engine was not behaving the same at all. Jolted into disbelief, Midgley had quite literally stumbled onto the remarkable antiknock properties of an obscure substance called tetraethyl lead. This proved to be without doubt the greatest single discovery in the development of aviation fuels; not only did this additive make higher power possible. it enabled the aeroplane to fly farther on a given amount of fuel- it gave the aeroplane range- and in turn enabled the successful engines that dominated aviation until the advent of gas turbines. In 1967 the remarkable Mr. Midgley was still active as president of the American Chemical Society. ******************************************************** THE STORY HOW LEAD GOT OUT OF OUR GAS... The story on how lead was legislated out of our fuels started when Clair Cameron Patterson could not isolate his rock samples from lead contamination in the lab in an effort to determine the age of the earth... he was shocked to learn lead was everywhere and developed the first sealed clean lab to prevent lead from messing up the data... The University of Chicago developed a new method for counting lead isotopes in igneous rocks, and assigned it to Clair Cameron Patterson as a dissertation project in 1948. During this period he operated under the assumption that meteorites are left-over materials from the creation of the Solar System, and thus by measuring the age of one of these rocks the age of the Earth would be revealed. Gathering the materials required time, and in 1953, Clair Cameron Patterson had his final specimens from the Canyon Diablo meteorite. He took them to the Argonne National Laboratory, where he was granted time on a late model mass spectrometer. In a meeting in Wisconsin soon afterward, Patterson revealed the results of his study. The definitive age of the Earth is 4.550 billion years (give or take 70 million years). This number still stands, although the margin of error is now down to about 20 million years. His ability to isolate microgram quantities of lead from ordinary rocks and determine their isotope composition led him to examining the lead in ocean sediment samples from the Atlantic and Pacific. Deriving from the different ages at which the landmasses had drained into the ocean, he was able to show that the amount of anthropogenic lead presently dispersed into the environment was about eighty times the amount being deposited in the ocean sediments: the geochemical cycle for lead appeared to be badly out of balance. The limitations of the analytic procedures led to him using other approaches. He found that deep ocean water contained 3-10 times less lead than surface water, in contrast to similar metals such as barium. This led him to doubt the commonly held view that lead concentrations had only grown by a factor of two over naturally occurring levels. Patterson returned to the problem of his initial experiment and the contamination he had found in the blanks used for sampling. He determined through ice-core samples from Greenland that atmospheric lead levels had begun to increase steadily and dangerously soon after tetraethyl lead began to see widespread use in fuel, when it was discovered to reduce engine knock in internal combustion engines. Patterson subsequently identified this, along with the various other uses of lead in manufacturing, as the cause of the contamination of his samples, and because of the significant public-health implications of his findings, he devoted the rest of his life to removing as much introduced lead from the environment as possible. Beginning in 1965, with the publication of Contaminated and Natural Lead Environments of Man, Patterson tried to draw public attention to the problem of increased lead levels in the environment and the food chain due to lead from industrial sources. Perhaps partly because he was criticizing the experimental methods of other scientists, he encountered strong opposition from recognized experts such as Robert A. Kehoe. In his effort to ensure that lead was removed from gasoline (petroleum), Patterson fought against the lobbying power of the Ethyl Corporation (which employed Kehoe), against the legacy of Thomas Midgley — which included tetraethyllead and chlorofluorocarbons — and against the lead additive industry as a whole. Following Patterson's criticism of the lead industry, he was refused contracts with many research organizations, including the supposedly neutral United States Public Health Service. In 1971 he was excluded from a National Research Council (NRC) panel on atmospheric lead contamination, even though he was the foremost expert on the subject at that time. Patterson's efforts ultimately led to the Environmental Protection Agency announcing in 1973 a reduction of 60-65% in phased steps, and ultimately the removal of lead from all standard, consumer, automotive gasoline in the United States by 1986. Lead levels within the blood of Americans are reported to have dropped by up to 80% by the late 1990s. He then turned his attention to lead in food where similar experimental deficiencies had masked the increase. In one study he showed an increase in lead levels from 0.3 to 1400 nanograms per gram in certain canned fish compared with fresh, whilst the official laboratory had reported an increase of 400 to 700. He compared the lead, barium and calcium levels in 1600 year-old Peruvian skeletons and showed a 700- to 1200-fold increase in lead levels in modern human bones with no comparable changes in the barium and calcium levels. In 1978 he was appointed to a NRC panel which accepted many of the increases and the need for reductions but argued the need for more research. His opinions were expressed in a 78-page minority report which argued that control measures should start immediately, including gasoline, food containers, paint, glazes and water distribution systems. Thirty years later, most of these have been accepted and implemented in the United States and many other parts of the world. Lead Fouled Sparkplug...
 
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: kawie_guy
Lead lubricates and cushions valve seats very well.
Do they need it?
That's really the question. Personally, I rather doubt it. Back in May of 1978 I bought a new Kawasaki KZ-1000 motorcycle. At the time it was one of the fastest street bikes you could buy. The mechanic at the dealership who prepped the bike and released it to me, told me to be sure to burn Super Shell Leaded Premium gas in it, and nothing else. At the time Super Shell Leaded Premium was the last leaded pump gasoline for sale in our area. Everything else was unleaded. I did so religiously. Because I had heard how horrible unleaded gas was on valves. (If you're old enough you'll remember at that same time, all of the leaded fuel additives that were for sale on the shelves at local auto parts stores). There were dozens of them, all proclaiming to, "save your engine" from the total destruction unleaded fuel was sure impose on it. With the leaded Super Shell Premium my engine would start idling rough, and miss and stutter if I got on it hard after 100 miles or so of easy riding. It took 4 or 5 hard runs up to high RPM's to clear it out. When I took the bike in for it's 1,000 mile inspection the same guy told me this was perfectly "normal". And proceeded to tell me I wasn't riding the bike "hard" enough. Not long after that Super Shell Premium went unleaded like all the other fuels, and leaded motor fuel was a thing of the past. As soon as I started burning unleaded Premium, everything improved. The bike started easier. It idled much smoother. All of the missing and stuttering under hard acceleration totally disappeared. The engine simply wouldn't "load up", the way it did constantly with the leaded Premium. Also, I noticed the oil was much cleaner when I changed it. And I started immediately getting 25 to 35 miles per tankful better mileage before I had to go on reserve from a, "to the brim" fill up. I kept and drove that bike until I finally sold it in 1997. And after over 48,000 miles in almost 20 years of driving, I never had an engine or valve related problem. The bike had excellent compression and power when I sold it. That convinced me that unleaded gasoline isn't the engine eating, destructive monster everyone back then, (and even today), made it out to be. I will say leaded gas most likely stores better over time. But that's what they make Sta-Bil, Ethanol Shield, and about a dozen other additives for.
 
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True... VP's $25 a gallon high octane leaded race fuel is mandatory for any overly boosted race Warbird engine... but other than that $7 a gallon 100LL works wonderfully in your Warbird... Strega 2012 Reno Air Race Champion...
 
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But the octane of isoheptane is much higher than normal heptane, which is typical of alkanes with carbon number 5 or higher in the gasoline boiling range. The greater the degree of branching, the higher the octane value for such alkanes. The first refinery I worked at as an engineer made 100LL Av Gas with a blend of light alkylate fractionated from alkylating both propylene and butylene into isoheptane and isooctane among other isomers, toluene, and TEL. Also worked great for NASCAR racing fuel when we picked up that contract except that had twice the allowable TEL content(4 grams / gallon vs 2 grams /gal) and a different dye color.
 
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Found this as a good overview. Toluene is one of the components of reformate, and is often seperated for specialty fuels blending and / or petrochemical use in an aromatics unit. Its importance increased when MSAT 2 regulations capped the benzene content in motor gasoline in the USA. https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Avgas
 
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So question, ya say lead lubes the valves and or seats? Where is the frictional movement in that interface that needs lubrication, that is as long as both are centered correctly and close in alignment there is no movement just tappers coming together? And then someone says lead acts as a cushion, what is there to cushion? Its not like those parts are dropped or pounded shut, if you think so then your missing some important factors. TEL did a very important function other than just octane boost any guess's?
 
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First I don't think any refineries bother to make regular batches of green 100/130 anymore (nor Red 80/87 or purple 115/145) Blue 100LL is all the market will support, between nitwit judges over applying strict liability doctrine and the typical bureaucratic bumbling of the FAA, general aviation is but a tiny fraction of what it was up to the 1970s and only has the customers to support one grade of fuel. Anyhow,
Originally Posted by Exhaustgases
So question, ya say lead lubes the valves and or seats? Where is the frictional movement in that interface that needs lubrication, ... what is there to cushion?...
Lead lubes the valve guides a bit on some older simple valvle-guide designs, but the main thing being protected is valve seats. Now valves do rotate very slightly which is why they wear evenly [the same reason piston rings usually are left free floating] but this is not the reason for seat erosion. Unhardened exhaust valve seats as found on older low cost engines [often just machined from the cast iron head] with out lead deposits will micro weld when hot. Then at next valve opening a microscopic piece of metal is torn free, followed again by a micro-weld in another spot and so on with each combustion cycle until the valve seat, and possibly the valve, has eroded away. A little bit of lead leaves a protective coating that stops the micro welding issue, this protection is what is often erroneously called cushioning by old timers, back ally mechanics, and salesmen. The amount of lead needed for this protection is actually pretty small, you really only need it once every 3-4 tanks if using the old high lead fuels. Even with 100LL every 2-3 tanks is usually enough protection; that is with the other tanks being unleaded. In fact 100LL is being phased out for 100VLL(very low lead) which is also blue and approved for all 100LL aircraft engines, and then 100-unleaded avgas formulations are in approval phase for new aircraft engines(and some rebuilds) though it will need to compete for the tiny avgas market with the new Jet-A diesels and MoGas certified engines. (Even for autoMotiveGas approved engines the fuel must not be oxygenated, esp. with alcohol, the one oxygenator exception is MTBE. Alcohols are the reason modern fuel goes bad in a month or two and is prone to separation, gasahol does especially poor with the pressure and temperature extremes of aircraft.) Jet-A and mogas both have economy of scale advantage and simplify distribution. Lead blow-by also requires a different crankcase oil formulation then unleaded to prevent excess sludge.(currently I can only think of 3 remaining oil brands for leaded fuel aircraft engines each with only about 4-5 viscosities) Frankly if the FAA was even a little on the ball, high reliability long life small turbines would have taken on a large share of the GA market and you would have lear-jet commuter outfits rather than Cessna caravans, however the rules were written by old timers in the '60s who viewed turbines(especially jet turbines) as experimental voodoo magic for top gun pilots only. As such the cutoff between small carriers and those needing to comply with full [large] airline rules is 10 passengers in a prop plane or any passengers in a turbojet/fan, despite prop engines being substantially more complex and thus more an order of magnitude more failure prone.(and said rules are why you don't see any airlines between 10 and about 60 seats and those under 10 never use jet thrust. [getting back to the subject]All of which would have already killed off the 100LL market in favor of Jet-A, instead everybody is stuck rebuilding 50 year old piston engines with out even being able to economically add hardened valve seats due to the red tape of a "modification". (Really I would buy the house a round if the FAA ever their crap together just enough to settle on one type of mile, its nautical then statute from one paragraph to the next.)
 
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