AutoRX_Patience w/new leak_keep Filters coming?

[caddis]

After finding this terrific bitog website recommendation from the folks at the IH8MUD website for Toyota Landcruisers, I've read all the forums on the use/application of the AutoRX product and decided it was a must order item I needed to get into my vehicles asap. Particularly the two (2) high mileage Toyotas. 96 Landcruiser 155k and a 97 Lexus ES 300 w/140K.

Thanks to the folks here and especially Frank and for his product and the informative website/forums for Auto_RX, I am now aware the V6 Lexus is a sludge year engine and likely in dire need of cleaning. Results so far on the Lexus:

- 1st cleaning phase was a yawner, non-event, 2500mi w/pre-emptive filter change at 1250mi.

- 300 miles into the 1st rinse cycle, an obvious seepage of oil has manifested itself from the valve cover. The seep seemed to progress thru the rinse phase and is now quite a 'wet' seep. Showing heavy black fluff on top in addition to wet sludge below (gravity I suspect), it expanded into an approximate 2-3inch wide band.

- Oil consumption of approximately 1/2 quart per 800 miles(topped off during filter changes) Note: I previous have serviced this vehicle w/filter and oil changes at approx. every 3000 miles using Castrol Syntec Blend 5w-30, and the vehicle has never consumed any oil (even at OCI run out 3500 -4000 I've never needed to top off), and there has never been any detectable leaks, or even weeping from the valve cover (yes, I have changed the PCV valve (every 60k consistent w/spark plug tune-ups).

- Not panicking, I've continued w/the rinse and filter changes (now coming every ~ 800 miles). I am now 1500 miles into 2nd cleaning phase, w/two filter changes already. Cutting them open shows noticeable black particles embedded in pleats, even during this 2nd cleaning phase!

1) Should I be re-ordering Auto RX in anticipation of a necessary 3rd treatment cycle if sludge keeps loading the filter after just 800 miles during final rinse? This is my 120 mi/day commuter, so I'll be into the 2nd rinse phase at the end of the month. Perhaps the 2nd rinse phase will show diminishing sludge and continued cleaning/rinse w/the maintenance dose will be sufficient, but how can one tell?

2) What are the chances the valve cover will rejuvenate and re-seal w/continued cleaning/rinses? or, should I expect a needed valve cover and plenum gasket replacement after final rinse?

My other vehicles are just in the initial cleaning phase, so not near the level of excitement yet, as I've observed w/the Lexus (Camry w/leather), and the filters I've buzzed open w/the Dremel tool (10 second job w/the cuttoff wheel)

 

[TooManyWheels]

The mere existance of black particles in the filter does not indicate that the filter is stopped up. In fact, I would just consider that the very first evidence that the product is working. At a minimum I would recommend going longer between your filter changes to see what accumulates.

 

[caddis]

It is more than just the particulates I believe. I think the bulk of the sludge is solubilized and embedded in the media, thus the 'power' loss and somewhat 'coarser' feedback from this typically smooth engine. I think Oilgal and others have found themselves changing filters quite often as well.

I commute from the mountains to the flatlands, dropping 4000 feet a day, and after a typical oil change, I find the car coasting (without pedal input) in downhill stretches at 80+ mph (in overdrive) and still picking up speed. A smooth and exhilerating bobsled run particularly in the winter. You have to add brake in order to avoid a ticket. After ~800 miles, it behaves more like I've downshifted with the overdrive off, through the same exact downhill stretches. It is very noticeable, with the feedback through the steering wheel and foot on the gas at a harsher frequency if I go beyond a 1000 miles or so.

Previously, (before Auto-Rx) I noticed the drop off at around 2500 miles.

 

[Gary Allan]

1). I would probably do a 3rd treatment just to assure that I've remedied the situation and as fast (yet, slow) manner as possible. The tar like deposits that the newer sludge prone engines appear to form can be quite stubborn.

2). It's hard to say if this will remedy itself or not. Shaft seals are one thing, valve cover gaskets are another. It's not like it's going to cost too much to wait it out. It depends on the cost of redoing the gasket. Another oil change or two should tell you one way or another, and probably won't cost you an additional $10 over (up to) 7500 in the waiting.

 

[Spitty]

I'm curious, this is the second post recently that has reported a power loss (1st was C3PO). Could someone explain how Dirty oil or a clogged oil filter could cause such a dramatic loss of power?

 

[caddis]

Thanks for the comments Gary, I planned to re-order my maintenance dose supply and few extra bottles to be safe. I didn't initially anticipate the dose requirement for my LandCruiser. It has an eight quart oil w/filter change requirement so I went with 1 1/2 bottles for cleaning phase on it and expect to do a minimum of 2 cycles on it as well.

Regarding the possibility of seeing the valve cover seep recover, I wasn't sure on coincidence with this observation, but I am curious whether this is common as I'm sure it is getting a cleaning and may be giving up some sludge in the process. Part of me is hoping I get to go in and replace it anyway so I can get first hand look at the results on this engine w/the Auto-Rx. I will certainly try and let things run their course first before I address the leak.

I don't know if I should be planning a return to the Syntec oil with this sludge prone engine, or would I be better off with the Castrol GTX and the maintenance dose of Auto-Rx during regular OCIs? Anyone with experience on this Toyo engine?

Lastly, I can't help but wonder about my 140k miles with this car, and the average OCIs of 3500 miles. I've typically noticed the power drop and felt the engine respond with an increased harshness after about 2000 or so miles. I had always attributed it to the oil become spent, but I now suspect the engine sludge was already building, and collecting in the filter to the extent it may have regularly found itself in bypass as I approached by 3000 - 3500 OCI trigger. (Observation based in part on the response changes I get when doing an oil filter change only during this Auto Rx application)

If this was indeed the case, might this have contributed to significant sludge development as this engine is already prone to?

 

[bmwtechguy]

My theory on this is that while ARX is cleaning a dirty engine such as a sludge-prone Toyota V6, a lot more particles will be floating around in the oil, even smaller stuff than the oil filter can take out of circulation. I think that this temporarily has a negative effect on ring seal until this really contaminated oil is eventually drained out.

I have seen the same thing happen on a personal vehicle when I switched it over to amsoil years ago after 139k miles on conventional oil with so-so maintenance by previous owner. I remember the dealer recommending to use the amsoil flush product, but I had seen a couple of sludged engines wiped out by flush products via clogged oil pickup screens, so I passed on the flush at that time. The longer the Amsoil was in the crankcase, the more the consumption increased. When I called him about the issue (this engine had never consumed any oil previously), he said I could change the oil filter to see if it would drop the consumption, or do a complete oil change. I changed oil and filter, and consumption went back to nil. That car saw 20k mile/ 1 year oil changes with about 2 quarts of makeup oil/year after that.

My theory is that the oil did some cleaning over the inital 10k miles after switching to synthetic, with a negative effect on ring seal during that time when some cleaning took place. Again, this is just my theory of what's going on.

 

[bmwtechguy]

Whichever oil you decide to use after the treatment cycles are complete, do the smart thing and use the (very economical) maintenance dose to keep things clean and do some additional cleaning, as others are seeing, based on pics.

On the 8qt sump, I would use 4oz maintenance dose, and 3 oz on the others. IMO, this is more important and cost-effective than using synthetic oil, especially for 3-5k mile OCI. Heck, I use and recommend the maintenance dose in everything after seeing the results firsthand.

 

[bmwtechguy]

BTW, forgot to mention the potential fuel savings and reduced engine wear with the maintenance dose. Real benefits.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
My theory on this is that while ARX is cleaning a dirty engine such as a sludge-prone Toyota V6, a lot more particles will be floating around in the oil, even smaller stuff than the oil filter can take out of circulation. I think that this temporarily has a negative effect on ring seal until this really contaminated oil is eventually drained out.



BINGO! .... Well, um, I mean that's what I think too.

My pillar pod mount vacuum/boost gage, clearly showed a drop in absolute manifold vacuum, indicating poor ring seal, with a dramatic corresponding drop in both performance and fuel economy.

That is why I drained my ARX rinse oil, a few hundred miles early, and changed O&F. I also poured in a new bottle of ARX.

My oil was completely saturated with liquefied carbon. It was TOAST. My filter was coal black and heavily clogged with shiny black carbon particles. It also was TOAST.

 

[caddis]

I know that oil! As I mentioned in earlier post, it causes the vehicle to run like you've shifted it out of the overdrive gear. A definite hindering in the mileage department as well.

Would you ever consider synthetics in this Toyota engine after treatment w/the maintenance dose, or should 'dino' remain the prescription from now on?

 

[bmwtechguy]

My BIL in OH with sludger toyoV6 Sienna van did ARX cycles, then switched to syn oil with ARX maintenance dose and 1 year oil/ filter changes for 8-12k miles on Amsoil 5W-30 ASL with EaO filter. Sounds ok to me.

 

[bmwtechguy]

Whichever, but I guess you know by now how much I believe in the maintenance dose no matter what type of oil you decide to use.

 

[Oilgal]

I don't think I am qualified to answer with any certainty Caddis, but I imagine a good quality Amsoil full synthetic and an AEO filter, for annual OCIs, would do you well.

I just use GRP III semi-syn and decent filters for now, and I vary my OCIs, erring on the cautious side, depending upon what I ask of my engine. After my engine is fully cleaned up with ARX, I am probably going to use some LC20 to remove all the varnish, and then I will likely switch to a good full synthetic and an Amsoil AEO filter.

 

[Spitty]

I commute from the mountains to the flatlands, dropping 4000 feet a day, and after a typical oil change, I find the car coasting (without pedal input) in downhill stretches at 80+ mph (in overdrive) and still picking up speed. A smooth and exhilerating bobsled run particularly in the winter. You have to add brake in order to avoid a ticket. After ~800 miles, it behaves more like I've downshifted with the overdrive off, through the same exact downhill stretches. It is very noticeable, with the feedback through the steering wheel and foot on the gas at a harsher frequency if I go beyond a 1000 miles or so.

Previously, (before Auto-Rx) I noticed the drop off at around 2500 miles. [/quote]

I guess I could (possibly) go along with the rings not sealing due to very contaminated oil, but in this case the car is coasting or even in over-run, loss of compression should speed him up!

 

[Rick20]

I would also suspect that with better ring sealing the car motor should act like a break utilizing back pressure. I think what Caddis observing is a good thing, and typical of a fresh motor.

Caddis, is this knick-name a relection of a trout fisherman?

 

[BarkerMan]

Spitty, what kind of car and how equipped? Do you have a lock-up torque converter or a standard tranny? Have you use a Scangauge to get more accurate readings?

 

[BearZDefect]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
...
That is why I drained my ARX rinse oil, a few hundred miles early, and changed O&F. I also poured in a new bottle of ARX.

My oil was completely saturated with liquefied carbon. It was TOAST. My filter was coal black and heavily clogged with shiny black carbon particles. It also was TOAST.
Off Topic: I love reading these dramatic descriptions because my experience was so different. My case: 1994 Honda Civic with 225k mi at the time, first ARX treatment, I left the rinse oil in for 2,500mi because it still appeared clean. Felt like a waste to dump it, but I did to follow instructions (2k at the time). Oil was Pennz conventional. And no, this D15B7 engine is neither pristine inside, nor has it been overmaintained.

 

[cha41ppy]

I believe the toast filter and toast oil is more a product of the 1mz-fe engine than it is the ARX. I've noticed even on a shortened interval that my filter was loaded with black gunk (99 es300).
I'd guess that it may be due to the higher than normal temps generated secondary to the need to conform to emissions standards as has been stated before. This makes the engine prone to leaving deposits no matter what - hence the reason why so many had the sludge issue, good maintenance or not. Go ahead and cut up old filters if you have them, they will be loaded.

Just another reason to follow up with a maintenance dose of ARX, GrIII+ synth and no > 7500 intervals unless validated by UOA. I don't think I could ever sleep well past 5000 mi personally.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: BearZDefect
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
...
That is why I drained my ARX rinse oil, a few hundred miles early, and changed O&F. I also poured in a new bottle of ARX.

My oil was completely saturated with liquefied carbon. It was TOAST. My filter was coal black and heavily clogged with shiny black carbon particles. It also was TOAST.
Off Topic: I love reading these dramatic descriptions because my experience was so different. My case: 1994 Honda Civic with 225k mi at the time, first ARX treatment, I left the rinse oil in for 2,500mi because it still appeared clean. Felt like a waste to dump it, but I did to follow instructions (2k at the time). Oil was Pennz conventional. And no, this D15B7 engine is neither pristine inside, nor has it been overmaintained.


I went the whole 2500 mile clean cycle. The oil was in far better shape than the rinse oil I dumped early.

Your engine has much higher mileage, and it has different engineering and fluids. It may be, that your oil still looked clean, because your engine needed another ARX treatment to be effective. I dunno for sure. That sounds plausible to me though.