Automakers Sign Agreement for Fuel Cell Cars

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general motors announced today that they have reached the million mile mark in there test fleet of 100 fuel cell vehicles being driven by real people in the real world,they are here and they emit only water vapor, obviously the cost factor could take another decade or so for them to be in common usage.
 
The cost factor will only go down only if we have have some break throughs like the ones I have been reading about being eminent for batteries since the 50's. Vaporware if I ever saw vaporware.
 
Solar and wind power and water driven turbines can produce hydrogen. Hydrogen can produce electricity. Its a complete cycle if desired or not. The energy within this circle can be stored in batteries, underground or above ground tanks and used when required. You can even have a hydrogen generator in your garage, producing hydrogen through solar and wind power or off the grid. Excess hydrogen not consumed by your car can be used to heat your water or fuel your electrical generator to run your household. Zero emmissions.
 
Originally Posted By: benjamming
It is not zero emissions. Every energy source produces emissions of some source.


and they are? (in this scenario)
 
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Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Are you aware of how photovoltaic wafers are produced, or how much steel and concrete goes into making one wind turbine?


If that is what you are talking about, then we'll never go anywhere. Of course there are emissions in production of periphials, [censored], everyone working on a project farts once in awhile, right?

I'm talking about CARBON emissions from the fuel and ITS production.
 
Fuel cells were developed during the American Civil War era. Is there really anyone here who thinks it's goona' happen? I've filled em' and I've driven them and no matter how you scale it, at 1MM/fuel cell it cannot work and they foul after 1 year even with 99.9995 purity for the hydrogen. Set your sights elsewhere. All the original hoopla over hydrogen stemmed from the "water from the tailpipe" and the dream of a polution free auto. The cheapest you will ever buy hydrogen will always be 3X the price of un-leaded.
 
Steel is made by heating iron ore with burning charred coal. Cement is made by heating calcium carbonate, silica, and a touch of iron ore with burning coal dust or natural gas. There's plenty of CO2 given off, but it's less than by burning coal directly for energy. PV cells take large amounts of energy to make, but recently they passed the break even point. I'm not sure what the energy break-even point is for a wind turbine, but its less than its lifespan.

The solutions being subsidized by gubbermints all over are not real solutions. They are make-work projects. Nukes will be the medium term answer, if you accept the dangers of more bomb ingredients, and occasional escapes of radiation that make the news. We have to radically increase efficiency. Then, the alternative energy sources will be more viable.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Steel is made by heating iron ore with burning charred coal. Cement is made by heating calcium carbonate, silica, and a touch of iron ore with burning coal dust or natural gas. There's plenty of CO2 given off, but it's less than by burning coal directly for energy. PV cells take large amounts of energy to make, but recently they passed the break even point. I'm not sure what the energy break-even point is for a wind turbine, but its less than its lifespan.

The solutions being subsidized by gubbermints all over are not real solutions. They are make-work projects. Nukes will be the medium term answer, if you accept the dangers of more bomb ingredients, and occasional escapes of radiation that make the news. We have to radically increase efficiency. Then, the alternative energy sources will be more viable.


Nice to know that nuclear facilities are not built of concrete and steel, you had me worried there for awhile.
 
For now, perhaps. But technology evolves. Nuclear waste is also a nasty form of "payback".
 
Originally Posted By: bradepb
general motors announced today that they have reached the million mile mark in there test fleet of 100 fuel cell vehicles being driven by real people in the real world,they are here and they emit only water vapor, obviously the cost factor could take another decade or so for them to be in common usage.


Once again, where does the hydrogen come from?
What are the efficiencies of the up-line processes?
Answer those two questions and you will understand why some/many think that fuel cells can only be a minor player in transportation.
 
-coal to electric 40% incl. transport losses
-electric to hydrogen 80% (electrolysis produces H atoms, which recombine to H2, with heat given off so you can never get 100%)
-hydrogen to 3500 psi compressed hydrogen 80%
-H2 to electric in fuel cell 60%
-electric to motor 80%

Overall efficiency is the product of them all, or 12%.

You can make H2 from natural gas, but cheap supplies will be gone very soon, if we start doing that.
 
That is all nice, but the point I'm making isn't about the present state, its about future development.

If all we do is throw our hands up in the air and declare it can't be done, it will never get done. But, it will get done. That is human nature. That is what moved us from the stone age , to the bronze age, to the iron age, etc.

I'm equally optimistic that a better method of handling nuclear waste will be found.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Are you aware of how photovoltaic wafers are produced, or how much steel and concrete goes into making one wind turbine?


I could only imagine the amount of concrete. We did a lot of footers for cell towers when I drove a mixer and they had 3 footers about 75 feet deep. But once they are set they are there for a very long time.
 
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