Australian question

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A question for our friends in Australia-- Can you get the oil spec for the Lexus LX470 or the Toyota Land Cruiser 100 4.7L petrol V8? These engines are very much like the engines sold in the U.S. in the Toyota Tundra truck and Sequioa and LandCruiser 4wd, and the Lexus LX470. Of course, the oil spec here is 5W-30 in all climates with a grudging OK to 10W-30 in warm temperatures. Ken [ January 24, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
 
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Ken, I've looked at the Australian oil manufacturer's websites (Mobil, Castrol, Caltex etc). Non list anything past the 4.0L V-8, and 2000 year models. The recomendations for these range from 10W-30 to 20W-50, including 10W-40, 15W-40, 5W-50 etc.etc.
 
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Ken2 BP rec Vico 3000 15W50 dino or Visco 5000 5W40 syn for the Landcruiser engine. Two reasons, here we want vehicles to last for a decade or two and 2nd no CAFE to worry about.
 

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Originally posted by sprintman: Ken2 BP rec Vico 3000 15W50 dino or Visco 5000 5W40 syn for the Landcruiser engine. Two reasons, here we want vehicles to last for a decade or two and 2nd no CAFE to worry about.
But do people there really get 500,000km out of their engines? I still find it hard to believe that a 50wt oil will provide the best protection in a tight clearance modern engine.
 
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Patman I think your making a big mistake in thinking that modern engines are 'much tighter' than older engines. Had 25 vehicles myself already and engines in/out some of them more times than I care to remember. Best mate is a pro racing engine builder. Rang him in Sydney to discuss clearances and he agrees they havn't changed a whole lot. Why would Mobil, Castrol, BP, Havoline (Called Caltex here) spec say 5W40 or 15W50 if they think 5W30, which they do have (no M1 5W30 though) here would do the job? The vehicles are identical or at least the engines are to what you drive so why the difference? CAFE. I finaaly tried 10W30 in my Mazda recently and the ensuing top end noise levels ensure I wont again. Maybe I'm incorrect but lower noise to me means better 'cushioning' from thicker hydrodynamic film in critical areas? Now I would not go back to 25W70 which I ran for many changes, nor 60W but a 50W in summer maybe. Redline 5W40 would be my oil of choice now but too many Pacific Peso's for my oldie. Is a bit of a dilemma now but same for most who visit the forum. Oh and 38C here today, fires all around but under control.
 
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Patman What gives you better protection, an oil with a HTHS of 3.5cp or one with 4.5cp? Whether the higher HTHS gives you better wear numbers in normal conditions is a different topic. But in the event of something out of the ordinary like excessive heat, fuel dilution, coolant contamination, etc., which compromises the oil’s performance, which one would you want in your engine?
 

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I honestly don't believe that a higher HTHS number correlates to better engine wear in every case. Like I've said, an engine's viscosity requirements are based on engine design and it's clearances. Just because a 20w50 has a better HTHS than a 10w30 doesn't mean it will always provide the best engine wear numbers. Now if you're talking about two oils of identical viscosities and one has a higher HTHS, obviously the higher one is going to provide better protection. How often do you really find yourself in a situation where the oil is extremely hot or you're running with no coolant? Even if the 20w50 provides the best protection under those circumstances, the rest of the time it might be causing more wear. [ January 25, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
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Sprintman, 32 degrees here (in the baby's room, which we're keeping cool). Outside is a smokey furnace at present.
 
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Oh, and to stay on topic, Mum and Dad were up (from the ACT) this weekend in their Pulsar (2000 model). They swiched from 10W-30 to 10W-40, with no increase in fuel consumption. (Our family keep logbooks of every tank pruchased, some sort of sickness I'm sure)
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Patman: I honestly don't believe that a higher HTHS number correlates to better engine wear in every case. Like I've said, an engine's viscosity requirements are based on engine design and it's clearances. Just because a 20w50 has a better HTHS than a 10w30 doesn't mean it will always provide the best engine wear numbers. Now if you're talking about two oils of identical viscosities and one has a higher HTHS, obviously the higher one is going to provide better protection. How often do you really find yourself in a situation where the oil is extremely hot or you're running with no coolant? Even if the 20w50 provides the best protection under those circumstances, the rest of the time it might be causing more wear.
Patman, I dunno, maybe I'm from the Old School that believes Straight Dino 30 is good, and multigrades(esp. 0w-30, 0w-20 thin type multigrades) are the work of the devil. But I still believe in my heart that thick viscous oil is the way to go, except maybe in actic-like winter conditions. One press flyer from Redline said something to the effect of: "a normal 10W-30 motor oil starts off as a 10 weight, then they add VI Improvers that make it thicken up at high temps. Lab tests are devised to 'prove' the thing is as good as a 30 weight at high temperatures, but the lab tests do not duplicate the high temperature, high pressure and high shear conditions in places such as the crankshaft big end bearings." Patman, maybe in this thread or elsewhere you mentioned your 10w-40 motor oil changing in cSt at 100 Celcius at a few thou miles. Well, multigrades do that a lot, vary in cSt over time and over miles. That's because they are an "artificial heavyweight." The monogrades on the other hand are the real "natural heavyweights." You get what you pay for when you buy monograde. You pay for a 30, you get a 30, at 0 miles and at 3,000 miles. Not like multigrade, where you pay for what is hopefully a 30 if enough VI Improver is in the bottle. And after 3000 miles, Hell knows what viscosity it is. I believe it is just vastly improved metallurgy in engines that's enabled the use of ridiculous weight oils such as 0w-20. But stil, it makes sense to get the best protection one's engine can have, and that is as our Australian friends say, thick oil.
 

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Originally posted by Flimflam: Patman, maybe in this thread or elsewhere you mentioned your 10w-40 motor oil changing in cSt at 100 Celcius at a few thou miles.
Not mine, but someone else's. I'm running 5w30 and 10w30 in my cars. I think that one of the big reasons they use the thicker oils in Australia is probably due to the fact that they feel the thinner stuff just wouldn't sell. I just haven't seen the evidence to me that proves that the thicker oil is going to lower engine wear. We've seen a LOT of oil analysis reports on here with all kinds of engines and most of the reports are with the thinner oils and they look good. Or what about the guy with the Chevy Truck who drove 800 miles a day and went 1 million miles, running nothing but 10w30? I'm always open to changing my mind, so if I see oil analysis reports on the thick stuff which show me lower wear I can't argue with that. But honestly, I don't see this being possible. The thicker oil is not going to flow as well for one. I believe that each engine needs a slightly different viscosity, there is no one size fits all, but I just don't believe too many engines built today would see their lowest wear numbers with a 50wt oil. Maybe a low 40wt in some cases, but not much thicker than that. Even our own Bob is thinking of going down to 5w30 from 15w40 on his next interval. I hope he sees this post and pops in to speak his mind on this subject.
 
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I'm with sprintman on the clearances issue. Common sense tells me if an engine clearances can operate with cold oil, it can certainly handle warm oil at almost any grade 30-60. For comparison Mobil 1 0w30 at 0 deg. C has a viscosity of around 450 Cst. Mobil 1 15w50 has a viscosity of around 18 Cst at 100 deg. C. So I don't think clearances are the real issue since motor's have to handle both thick and thin oil well to operate.
 

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True, they can physically handle that thick oil, that's never been a question, but how long does the oil stay that thick? Not long. As the engine warms up the oil thins out (obviously) and we all know that engine wear is much lower on a warmed up engine. This is also why shorter trips can hurt an engine, as the oil is too thick during the beginning in order to provide optimal protection. This is also why the experts say not to drive your car hard on cold oil, as it just won't flow as well. [ January 26, 2003, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
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Another answer could be that just about any hot oil viscoscity is sufficient to keep the asperites apart under normal engine loads. A thicker oil provided it can keep the heat away from the bearing will do the job fine, given proper bearing design.
 

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I just thought of another point too. You say that the 15w50 weight wouldn't be a problem since a 10w30 oil would be way thicker when cold, but did you also take into account the fact that the 15w50 oils will be even thicker than 10w30 when cold? Since many new engines may have never been designed with such a thick oil in mind, this could pose a huge problem having the oil so much thicker when cold. [ January 26, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
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Like many of you on this board, I have been sitting back and looking at oil analysis, filter info, and engine designs. Something has really struck me as interesting and I'm not sure I am ready to share this, as there is a little more that wanted to do before bringing this up but I suppose now is as good as any. What I'm seeing is that many lower viscosity oils are providing more protection than that of thicker oils. OK, lets look at what I see. To provide the best protection in a bearing, you want to created the best hydrodynamic cushion between the bearing and crank. This is done how? Oil pressure or oil flow?, Thicker oil takes longer to move through the system, therefore it takes longer to move through the shear zone(bearing/crank in this case). Thinner oil, well, it means it can maintain pressure constantly on acceleration and start up than a thicker oil. Ok, bear with me, lets move back to the oil filter.... Here is something I have recently found.. I took a synthblend, with m1's filter, and found it to work well, or did it? I then took a fram filter, with a mineral oil with the same additive package as the blend, and same viscosity as the blend, and it returned with lower wear numbers. Hmmmm, Ok, so only real difference here is POA on blend, ver's a mineral without PAO, and m1 high filtration, ver's a low end higher flow fram filter. Now, the mineral had better flow through the fram filter than the blend did in the m1 filter. This created more constant pressure at the bearings. OK, at idle, say the engine is at 28lbs of pressure at the filter in and out to the bearings. Pressure gauge is sitting between the bearing and the output side of the filter. Now, when you accelerate you engine, the pump puts out an immediate amount of flow, so it will jump from 28lbs of pressure between the oil pump and the filter to 40-70lbs. This is not reflected on most pressure gauges that fast because two things.. One, the filter cannot pass that much pressure through at once, therefore it takes a moment for the pressure difference to open the bypass valve which during this time, you've sheared the oil out between the bearings and crank. Second is most gauges do not reflect immediately like a fuel gauge, it takes the gauge a moment to rise. There is actual fast reacting gauges but for cost benefits in cars, they opt for the cheaper one. Now, back to flow, pump jumps up immediately, oil filter has high pressure momentarily between it and the oil pump and at the same time, bearing is squeezing the 28lbs of pressure you had in the bearings, while the filter at the same time is now trying to equal out the different pressure between the input and output sides., This, creates minor scuffing. With a thick oil in the bearing it will take longer for it to shear out, but at the same time, it will also take longer to get through the filter during this acceleration. On the other hand, if you can maintain higher flow to the bearings with a lower viscosity, it can slow down the shearing due to the fact you now have more pressure increased to the bearings faster than with a high viscosity oil trying to get past a high filtration media and having to go through by pass every time acceleration incurs. This is why you have a severe condition while driving in town vers on the hwy. The in town driving sees more stop and go, and more wear can occur because of these pressure/flow ups and downs where as on the hwy, flow is more constant and provides a steady pressure at the crank bearings where it doesn't tend to shear as much. Another thing to think about, when racers line up to start a race, what are they doing?, they are running up the engines and are holding oil pressure up so when they jump on it, the pressure is already at the bearings and not at idle. Yes, there is more to it than that but that IMO, is one reason for having the rpms up as well as taching up for power. So, point I'm making here is this... There is a balance of viscosity oil used vers, oil filter flow for each type of engine and for driving conditions such as temps, types of acceleration and drivers of each vehicle. You'll notice that the little old lady that never jumps on the gas seems to never wear a car out, unlike the younger guy who seems to rag em out quickly. One never breaks hydrodynamic lube as she accelerates slowly giving that oil a chance to build up pressure before scuffing and the other is on it quickly having sheared the oil out before the oil pressure gets there to assist maintaining hydrodynamic flow. So, if you can maintain pressure at the bearings, this would reduce oil shearing, which would reduce bearing scuffing and higher heat due to the scuffing. This is just some observations and my thoughts as to why some of the thinner oils may be producing better numbers than some of the thicker oils. Go ahead and tear it apart and let me see where the flaw is on this.
 
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<b>Bob:</b> Very well put and I agree with everything you just said. This is why I use 5W30 oil and those dreaded Pennzoil (FRAM) filters. Have been for over 20 years. Now, when I use to live in Dallas, most of my customers and I were the old school straight 30W, 40W, and 20W50 fans. Well let me tell you, this morning in Wausau it is -8F with a wind chill of -25F, and if I had the straight weights or the high vis weights in my car, it would set until spring.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken2: A question for our friends in Australia-- Can you get the oil spec for the Lexus LX470 or the Toyota Land Cruiser 100 4.7L petrol V8? These engines are very much like the engines sold in the U.S. in the Toyota Tundra truck and Sequioa and LandCruiser 4wd, and the Lexus LX470. Of course, the oil spec here is 5W-30 in all climates with a grudging OK to 10W-30 in warm temperatures. Ken
Here is the Valvoline Lube guide for Australia,,punch in some motors and compare to the U.S guides. http://www.valvoline.com.au/servprodguide.cfm
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Patman:
quote:
Originally posted by Flimflam: Patman, maybe in this thread or elsewhere you mentioned your 10w-40 motor oil changing in cSt at 100 Celcius at a few thou miles.
Not mine, but someone else's. I'm running 5w30 and 10w30 in my cars. I think that one of the big reasons they use the thicker oils in Australia is probably due to the fact that they feel the thinner stuff just wouldn't sell. I just haven't seen the evidence to me that proves that the thicker oil is going to lower engine wear. I'm always open to changing my mind, so if I see oil analysis reports on the thick stuff which show me lower wear I can't argue with that. But honestly, I don't see this being possible. The thicker oil is not going to flow as well for one. I believe that each engine needs a slightly different viscosity, there is no one size fits all, but I just don't believe too many engines built today would see their lowest wear numbers with a 50wt oil.

When new, at 0 miles, both multigrade 30 and monograde 30 are good. Whan old, at 3,000 or 5,000 miles, only the monograde 30 is close to what it was when new, in terms of all the test parameters: cSt, Vicosity Index, flash point, pour point, film strength. The less VI Improvers, the more consistent(in quality) the oil is over the long term. Call me a skeptic, but I just don't believe you can have something that is both a 10 and a 30, depending on what temperature it happens to be, all in the same bottle. I mean, do you want an oil or do you want Silly Putty? Apologies to the many thin oil fanatics out there, who I know are all going to rise up and howl in indignation. I can just hear them: "go back to the stone age, ya cave man!" [Wink] [Wink]
 

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Just for clarification, if an oil is listed as a 10w30 that does not mean it's a 10wt when cold, nor does it mean it acts like a 10wt when cold. It is simply a number assigned to it based on it's cold weather performance. The value is given when it passes a certain cold cranking performance at a certain temperature. To add to the confusion, some oils out there may be listed as 15w40s when their cold weather performance would actually allow them to be qualified as a 10w40.
 
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