Audi S4 3.0T - Motul, M1, Redline or other?

[ringmaster]

I am now behind the wheel of a 2012 Audi S4 with GIAC AWE Stage 2 (~425hp) so I want to protect the engine with the best slick stuff!

Warranty and long drain intervals are not a concern - the Stage 2 upgrade killed most of the powertrain coverage and my OCD personality means that I will never go more than ~7k miles between oil and filter changes. My typical go-to oils are from Redline or Motul (8100 and 300V). Mobil 1 0W-40 is also a consideration but the low(ish) 3.8 HTHS has me a bit worried.

After some research it sounds like intake valve carbon deposits are a big issue for these DI VAG engines so some have suggested a mid or low SAPS oil. Is it true that low SAPS oils will keep the valves cleaner? Is the only downside to low SAPS the lower TBN and reduced performance over long OCIs?

What makes the VW approved oils so special, I.e. why use Motul Specific 505.01/502.00 rather than 8100 X-Max or X-Cess?

 

[dparm]

Your TFSI motor does not suffer from carbon buildup like the first-gen ones did (RS4, etc). It has a vastly improved vapor reclamation system. I saw photos on Audizine of some 60k+ motors that had been opened up and things looked almost brand-new.


I would stick with anything on the 502/505 list, with a preference going to M1 0w40 and PU Euro 5w40. Both are very stout and should work well.

I had the dealer-supplied Castrol Syntec 5w40 in mine and it did not fair too well. My B8 S4 was Stasis-tuned. Please post a photo of your sweet new ride!

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

You will get carbon deposits. Just when? No one can say. I'm on the fence myself with this in my GTI. I have a Low SAPS oil in but the cost difference for one, over let's at 70k miles would pay for the valve cleaning job (for the 2.0T) so I'm debating going back to the M1 0w40.

Part of me wants to believe 504 will help and maybe it will?

Or maybe it won't?

If you believe the Lubrizol report like so many others including myself it makes the choice that much more difficult.

Jeff

 

[OneEyeJack]

You're smart spending some time and effort looking into such matters. You efforts and interest are a good hedge against future expensive repairs that scare some people away from Audi's. Make sure you don't forget the cooling system, brake fluid and running gear lubrication. Someone at work had this great A2, a station wagon that ran and drove like a dream. He made up excuses to drive the car, took the long way to places and could be found in his driveway, washing waxing and loving his car. He took his car to a quick lube place for oil changes between covered services, over a couple of years and was sold a radiator flush and transmission flush. He knew nothing about such matters and got taken for a ride. The cheap oil they used and the transmission service was the end of his ride. He won a judgement but the expense of the repairs that came out of his pocket was the end of the line. If you even mention Audi to him he gets upset. So, do a good job with your research. Your efforts will pay off.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
You will get carbon deposits. Just when? No one can say. I'm on the fence myself with this in my GTI. I have a Low SAPS oil in but the cost difference for one, over let's at 70k miles would pay for the valve cleaning job (for the 2.0T) so I'm debating going back to the M1 0w40.

Part of me wants to believe 504 will help and maybe it will?

Or maybe it won't?

If you believe the Lubrizol report like so many others including myself it makes the choice that much more difficult.

Jeff



Audi extended warranty coverage against carbon buildup on the 3.0 TFSI, which explicitly includes carbon cleaning if they deem it necessary. He doesn't have to worry about shelling out for it.

 

[artificialist]

The UOA section doesn't have supercharged Audi models, tuned or not. However, it has tuned turbocharged models with tunes, and 5w40 Shell RT6 shows excellent results.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
The UOA section doesn't have supercharged Audi models, tuned or not. However, it has tuned turbocharged models with tunes, and 5w40 Shell RT6 shows excellent results.


I've got at least one UOA in there from my old 2011 Stasis S4.

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Your TFSI motor does not suffer from carbon buildup like the first-gen ones did (RS4, etc). It has a vastly improved vapor reclamation system. I saw photos on Audizine of some 60k+ motors that had been opened up and things looked almost brand-new.


I would stick with anything on the 502/505 list, with a preference going to M1 0w40 and PU Euro 5w40. Both are very stout and should work well.

I had the dealer-supplied Castrol Syntec 5w40 in mine and it did not fair too well. My B8 S4 was Stasis-tuned. Please post a photo of your sweet new ride!


Great to find someone with firsthand experience. We also share a love for similar cars; I have owned two E90 M3s!

Do you prefer M1 0W-40 over Motul VW SPECIFIC 505 01,502 00 5W-40 or Redline Euro-Series 5W40? The Redline seems a lot beefier than the other two but maybe the 3.0T doesn't need an HTHS over 4?

Any reasons to avoid mid or low SAPS if I plan to change every 6-7k?

 

[bluesubie]

Any 502 oil, Rotella T6, Red Line, or Motul 300V.

-Dennis

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

Great to find someone with firsthand experience. We also share a love for similar cars; I have owned two E90 M3s!

Do you prefer M1 0W-40 over Motul VW SPECIFIC 505 01,502 00 5W-40 or Redline Euro-Series 5W40? The Redline seems a lot beefier than the other two but maybe the 3.0T doesn't need an HTHS over 4?

Any reasons to avoid mid or low SAPS if I plan to change every 6-7k?



I prefer the M1 simply because it is (A) cheap and (B) easy to get. The others will work fine but the difference in normal operation will be marginal and it's not enough to justify the hassle of ordering online, paying for shipping, etc.

I wouldn't worry about the SAPS thing if you plan to change every 7500, frankly.

 

[deven]

I have a '13 A6 3.0T with Stage II APR Tune and currently run Royal Purple 5w40 with close to 5K miles on it. The car runs smoother and quieter with this oil than its predecessor which was dealer installed(free) Castrol Syntec 5w40. Definitely not impressed with this oil. Just ordered a UOA kit and will be sending the Castrol in for analysis. Next oil I'm going to use is Royal Purple HPS 5w30 with its added ZDDP. I doubt there will be carbon buildup while using RP. Hope this helps!

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Problem with RP is it doesn't carry VW 502 approval. Not that I'm aware of.

Kiss your warranty bye bye IF anything happens while under warranty. VW is anal about what oil to use. I'm assuming Audi is the same.

Jeff

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: dparm
I prefer the M1 simply because it is (A) cheap and (B) easy to get. The others will work fine but the difference in normal operation will be marginal and it's not enough to justify the hassle of ordering online, paying for shipping, etc.

I wouldn't worry about the SAPS thing if you plan to change every 7500, frankly.


You guys aren't giving me any technical meat to bite into

If I am carefree (careless?) and don't worry about things like cost and availability what is the ultimate oil for this application? If you could choose any of these sitting on a shelf in front of you for free which would it be?

Motul 300V 5W-40
Motul VAG Specific 5W-40
Mobil 1 0W-40

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

The thing is its just that. Your answer cannot be answered. There is no "Best" any oil. You find an oil with the specs you need throw in availability of such oil that suits you and your done.

Everything else is just subjective or personal opinion.

Jeff

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Problem with RP is it doesn't carry VW 502 approval. Not that I'm aware of.

Kiss your warranty bye bye IF anything happens while under warranty. VW is anal about what oil to use. I'm assuming Audi is the same.

Jeff

We don't have to worry about warranty. Both ours went out the door when we tuned our cars!

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

You guys aren't giving me any technical meat to bite into

If I am carefree (careless?) and don't worry about things like cost and availability what is the ultimate oil for this application? If you could choose any of these sitting on a shelf in front of you for free which would it be?

Motul 300V 5W-40
Motul VAG Specific 5W-40
Mobil 1 0W-40




I think it's hard to definitively say. What I would do is run one of those oils and get the UOA to see how it works for your specific motor and driving habits. Personally I would just skip the Specific 502/505 -- it's not a very remarkable oil.

By the way, I think I'd rather go for the Motul 300V 0w40 instead of the 5w40. It's similar to M1 0w40 but slightly heavier (HTHS 3.9). It's a new product of theirs that intrigued me.

Have you considered something like Red Line 0w40? Or Renewable Lube 0w30 or 5w40? Those are some very stout oils too.

 

[ringmaster]

Originally Posted By: dparm
I think it's hard to definitively say. What I would do is run one of those oils and get the UOA to see how it works for your specific motor and driving habits. Personally I would just skip the Specific 502/505 -- it's not a very remarkable oil.

By the way, I think I'd rather go for the Motul 300V 0w40 instead of the 5w40. It's similar to M1 0w40 but slightly heavier (HTHS 3.9). It's a new product of theirs that intrigued me.

Have you considered something like Red Line 0w40? Or Renewable Lube 0w30 or 5w40? Those are some very stout oils too.


For sure a few UOAs would help me to decided but I am trying to make the best choices ahead of time

I hadn't considered any 0W-40 oils other than M1 but now that you mention it they certainly make sense for the freezing weather that my S4 will have to endure. Since warranty isn't one of my concerns I should probably skip all of the 5W oils.

Are the latest 300V formulations totally suitable for basic street engines or are they still more of a race oil for short OCIs? If the 300V 0W-40 is the best oil in this grade for my engine I am willing to pay the premium.

I am a big fan of Redline products so if their 0W-40 is a top shelf alternative to M1 and 300V I should seriously consider it. I see it has the highest HTHS of the trio we are discussing.

You must think highly of M1 0W-40 if you trust the life of your S65 to it over TWS 10W-60!

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
My typical go-to oils are from Redline or Motul (8100 and 300V). Mobil 1 0W-40 is also a consideration but the low(ish) 3.8 HTHS has me a bit worried.

Mobil 1 0w-40 is the spec oil for the GT-R, 911 Turbo, Carrera GT, etc. It's also used straight out of the bottle by a lot of race teams. I wouldn't be worried.

Of the oils you've mentioned, only Motul 300V has remotely that kind of provenance. It just doesn't carry the approvals required for your car.

Red Line has a heck of a rep but, compared to the above two oils, very little besides people's feelings to back it up.


Originally Posted By: ringmaster
After some research it sounds like intake valve carbon deposits are a big issue for these DI VAG engines so some have suggested a mid or low SAPS oil. Is it true that low SAPS oils will keep the valves cleaner? Is the only downside to low SAPS the lower TBN and reduced performance over long OCIs?

A lower SAPS oil can also have diminished anti-wear properties as well.

That said, I'd definitely be interested in keeping SAPS as low as reasonable with DI. Yet another reason why Mobil 1 0w-40 is such a great product: its additive package is not too heavy, but the approvals it carries prove that it can still work in very tough applications.

300V will take all the punishment you can throw at it, and more. Its additive package is heavier, though (last I checked, anyway).


Originally Posted By: ringmaster
What makes the VW approved oils so special, I.e. why use Motul Specific 505.01/502.00 rather than 8100 X-Max or X-Cess?

Best to ask Motul. If you're persistent, they can probably connect you with someone who'll give a decent answer.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster

Are the latest 300V formulations totally suitable for basic street engines or are they still more of a race oil for short OCIs? If the 300V 0W-40 is the best oil in this grade for my engine I am willing to pay the premium.

I am a big fan of Redline products so if their 0W-40 is a top shelf alternative to M1 and 300V I should seriously consider it. I see it has the highest HTHS of the trio we are discussing.

You must think highly of M1 0W-40 if you trust the life of your S65 to it over TWS 10W-60!



Yes, 300V is totally suitable for street use. I ran it in my old Audi S4 (B6 with the 4.2L 40V V8) a couple of times and even with a 5k change interval it had life left on it.

I do think highly of M1 0w40, yes. BMW has since relaxed the oil requirements in NAM and you can now run LL-01 in the S65/S85.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
After some research it sounds like intake valve carbon deposits are a big issue for these DI VAG engines so some have suggested a mid or low SAPS oil. Is it true that low SAPS oils will keep the valves cleaner? Is the only downside to low SAPS the lower TBN and reduced performance over long OCIs?

A lower SAPS oil can also have diminished anti-wear properties as well.


This is something I was curious about myself. But do you have any proof of this? or just a Theory?

504 spec oils are pretty tough from all I have read, Though not used in Racing that I am aware of. Most teams I know that use "A" Brand oil or "B" brand oil get it for free, so they really dont care haha.

Most average Joe's so to speak that I raced with in my Lance "Evo" race days, either ran Brad Penn, or Redline with confidence. 5 yrs of racing on RL 5w30 on my 420whp Evo that was tracked every weekend plus was my Daily Driver NEVER once had any lube failure or showed any Ill UOA's if anything were excellent UOA's.

Redline is not just a Belief oil, based on "feelings" for the Average Joe Racer it IS THE GO TO OIL OF CHOICE and for a reason.

Jeff