Atlas Bipod Knockoff

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: billt460

If this is all so "illegal", and is a "crime", as you so seem to think, why aren't these goods confiscated, and the managers of these stores arrested? The fact is they do not deceive the purchaser by price, or by false branding into thinking they are getting an original, and are all PERFECTLY LEGAL, the same as the bipod I purchased. Your problem is you don't have a single clue as to what you're even talking about.


Many moons ago a company called "Professional Products" blatantly ripped-off Edelbrock's intake designs for the Small Block Ford. They cloned the Performer RPM EFI intake, and Edelbrock was not compensated in any way shape or form for this. There was no license to reproduce this product. The clone was of course manufactured in China where copyright laws are not in any way enforced, so Edelbrock had no recourse. The intakes were sold through an offshore trading company which was not the manufacturer, so could not be held accountable for any part of this.

And the intake sold well. Very well. Because it was cheaper than the Edelbrock unit.

The fact that the company had to do zero R&D, simply duplicate something somebody else had invested in the development of didn't weigh heavily on the minds of most hot rodders similar to how you seem to be giving less than a deer pellet about what amounts to the same transpiring here with Atlas. That doesn't make it right.

There is VERY little recourse for copyright infringement with parties operating outside of the first world. Even if it was a true counterfeit and sold as "Atlas", nobody would be going after the manufacturer, who is likely operating in China, because they would get absolutely nowhere. Just like with the myriad of counterfeit products traded on Alibaba constantly. Just like the glut of obvious counterfeit Michael Kors belongings on Amazon.

Choosing to buy a blatant rip-off of somebody else's engineering work is a conscious choice. Some people are incensed by others partaking in that, I know I used to be. I've come to accept it now as a part of the modern consumer rot that has grown with the Walmartization of society where everything is disposable and people buy cheap junk and replace that cheap junk with more cheap junk when it breaks.

North Americans are by and large consumer whores who want the best "deal" on everything they buy and love to claim they want to buy something made by people making a living wage but really don't. They want it as cheap as possible so they can buy more junk. We are shallow creatures operating under a fog of feigned morality.

 

[Kasey]

William, oh I have a clue! You want to look cool but don't have the horsepower to be cool so your "faking it"! So cool, that counterfeit will look sweet on your airsoft blaster.

Actually, I know a bit more than you give me credit for and one thing for sure, you are a willing participant in a crime called counterfeiting for the exact reasons fellow member OVERKILL states. Maybe some day you will be the victim of theft and reflect on your justifications here.

 

[billt460]

Any product that is cloned or copied is copying someone else's design. That is a fact. It happens in most all forms of industry. You can argue these copies are "junk". In some cases they very well may be. Or most cases they're not, and serve their purpose well. You can say they are all "illegal", or else wish they were. But the fact is they are not. Atlas designed, built, and took to market a very high quality, expensive bipod. No one is going to tell me they didn't anticipate the very real possibility of someone else reproducing it cheaper. A LOT cheaper. If they didn't, they were stupid. In fact, by them choosing to charge what they do, ($330.00), they all but guaranteed a healthy clone market.

Now, as a direct result of the high price they chose to place on their product, they have a flood of copies and facsimiles on the market, all over the country, for less than 1/6th the cost. Not 25%, or even 50% less. But less than 1/6th the cost, for an identical item. Now, our buddy Kasey is all concerned about Atlas and their production costs. I said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't care what it cost them to produce it, any more than they care if I can afford it. I also don't know what their profit margin is on their beautiful $330.00 bipod. And again, I don't care. As the end consumer all I care about is the price that I am willing to pay. If it falls within the amount I feel it's worth, I will make the purchase. If it doesn't, I won't.

It really is just that simple. As the end consumer of ANY product I, along with every other consumer makes that determination. On each and every product we buy. Not Atlas, not Edelbrock, or anyone else. Products fail in the marketplace every day. Others succeed. Much of that failure or success is based on price. If it's too much, people won't buy it. Or else, as in my case, they will purchase a lower cost copy or clone if it's available. Otherwise they will simply buy something else, or do without. But either way Atlas has lost the sale due to the price they determined to place on their product.

And as far as legality, something is either illegal, or it is not. Buying a clone of a product is not. I have cited several examples of various products that would be very easy to legally enforce, if they were in fact being sold illegally. They're not. As far as it being ethical to purchase a cloned product, I personally have no problem with it. Atlas created the market for their product. Because of the high price they placed on their product, they themselves opened up a large market for lesser cost clones. They chose their price, and their competitors chose to compete with them. Because they could. Kasey and you don't like that. You can blame people like myself who purchase these goods. Or you can blame the manufacturers who produce and sell them. Or all of the above. But either way it makes no difference to me. I made my choice. And I've explained why I made it.... Several times. And honestly I don't care what anyone else thinks of the products I purchase, or what I paid for them, anymore than you do. And as Larry Potterfield so eloquently say's, "That's the way it is". Welcome to the free market.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Kasey
......you are a willing participant in a crime called counterfeiting....


Then have me arrested.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Any product that is cloned or copied is copying someone else's design. That is a fact. It happens in most all forms of industry. You can argue these copies are "junk". In some cases they very well may be. Or most cases they're not, and serve their purpose well. You can say they are all "illegal", or else wish they were. But the fact is they are not. Atlas designed, built, and took to market a very high quality, expensive bipod. No one is going to tell me they didn't anticipate the very real possibility of someone else reproducing it cheaper. A LOT cheaper. If they didn't, they were stupid. In fact, by them choosing to charge what they do, ($330.00), they all but guaranteed a healthy clone market.

Now, as a direct result of the high price they chose to place on their product, they have a flood of copies and facsimiles on the market, all over the country, for less than 1/6th the cost. Not 25%, or even 50% less. But less than 1/6th the cost, for an identical item. Now, our buddy Kasey is all concerned about Atlas and their production costs. I said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't care what it cost them to produce it, any more than they care if I can afford it. I also don't know what their profit margin is on their beautiful $330.00 bipod. And again, I don't care. As the end consumer all I care about is the price that I am willing to pay. If it falls within the amount I feel it's worth, I will make the purchase. If it doesn't, I won't.

It really is just that simple. As the end consumer of ANY product I, along with every other consumer makes that determination. On each and every product we buy. Not Atlas, not Edelbrock, or anyone else. Products fail in the marketplace every day. Others succeed. Much of that failure or success is based on price. If it's too much, people won't buy it. Or else, as in my case, they will purchase a lower cost copy or clone if it's available. Otherwise they will simply buy something else, or do without. But either way Atlas has lost the sale due to the price they determined to place on their product.

And as far as legality, something is either illegal, or it is not. Buying a clone of a product is not. I have cited several examples of various products that would be very easy to legally enforce, if they were in fact being sold illegally. They're not. As far as it being ethical to purchase a cloned product, I personally have no problem with it. Atlas created the market for their product. Because of the high price they placed on their product, they themselves opened up a large market for lesser cost clones. They chose their price, and their competitors chose to compete with them. Because they could. Kasey and you don't like that. You can blame people like myself who purchase these goods. Or you can blame the manufacturers who produce and sell them. Or all of the above. But either way it makes no difference to me. I made my choice. And I've explained why I made it.... Several times. And honestly I don't care what anyone else thinks of the products I purchase, or what I paid for them, anymore than you do. And as Larry Potterfield so eloquently say's, "That's the way it is". Welcome to the free market.


In the race to the bottom the blatant disregard for the value of copyright and patents stifles innovation, which in turn works against the very concept of "free market" that you so haughtily advocate. This is why copyright and intellectual property laws were invented in the first place, to allow individuals and corporations to be properly compensated for their hard work and Engineering. This in turn incentivizes others to create competing products that may be superior, fostering innovation, invention and improvement whilst rewarding the consumer with superior products that are priced competitively in the marketplace.

Nobody anticipated the rise of a 3rd world manufacturing power house that had absolutely zero respect for any of that and would gleefully rip off those designs and manufacture clones that would then be peddled in the same market as the original at a fraction of the price.

Regarding legality, it means nothing if it cannot be enforced, and the Chinese have made it abundantly clear that they do not care one iota for IP and copyright laws applying to products developed elsewhere. There is really nothing stopping stores from selling counterfeit products, we see it all the time on Amazon and E-bay.

You are 100% right about consumers though. Some are willing to pony up the money and support those who do the innovation, others will not. And those that won't will justify that decision to the ends of the earth and pontificate over why it is their right as a consumer to do so.

My wallet speaks just as loudly as yours, and I choose to support the innovators and those that pay to develop these products. There are obviously enough of us out there that Atlas is still in business and that the market is big enough for others like CADEX to not only succeed but thrive. Somebody has to buy the originals, or there wouldn't be anything for the morally vacant to rip-off.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
.......You are 100% right about consumers though. Some are willing to pony up the money and support those who do the innovation, others will not. And those that won't will justify that decision to the ends of the earth and pontificate over why it is their right as a consumer to do so. My wallet speaks just as loudly as yours, and I choose to support the innovators and those that pay to develop these products........


As do I. But only to a point, and not unconditionally. If I feel the item is overpriced, I am NOT going to purchase it. I don't care how much they invested in the design. Or what they feel they have to charge in order to make a profit. It doesn't matter. I won't overpay... Period. And I, not Atlas, will determine if $330.00 for a bipod is overpaying. As I said, they have the right to charge anything they want for their product. Just as I have the right not to buy it if I feel that price is too high. Or else purchase something similar, that is priced more in line of what I feel the product is actually worth. And American companies are just as capable of ripping off consumers as the Chinese, or anyone else.

Back in the 60's I listened to much the same nonsense I hear today over Chinese goods, concerning Japanese cars back then. "They're all cheap junk"...... "You're taking food off American families tables when you buy one"...... "When you find yourself out of a job, you can eat your foreign car!"...... And all the rest of this same, lame, silly nonsense. No, The Japanese didn't copy our cars directly. But just the same they created an entire new market of much lower cost foreign models that weren't going away. Import tariff's and all. All they did is get better. It's going to be the same dance with the Chinese. It's already happening. The quality of their goods has vastly improved over what it was just a decade ago. Anyone who doesn't believe that is being ignorant.

Today many of those same people, who back then cussed out every Japanese car owner they saw, now will tell you how wonderful their new Toyota Tundra or Nissan Frontier is. Compared to the overpriced, junky Silverado or Ram their buddy drives. It has become a never ending saga. Globalization of goods is not going away. In fact it's only going to get worse. Or better depending on how you look at it. Products will be copied in other countries, and sold here. If you choose to buy them or not isn't going to matter, because others will. And in fact, as I have demonstrated, already are.

 

[Kasey]

William, stated "Now, as a direct result of the high price they chose to place on their product, they have a flood of copies and facsimiles on the market, all over the country, for less than 1/6th the cost. Not 25%, or even 50% less. But less than 1/6th the cost, for an identical item." underline added.

So you believe the counterfeit and the original Atlas are identical? You've obviously have never handled the real Atlas and once again are professing knowledge you simply do not process.


"As do I. But only to a point, and not unconditionally. If I feel the item is overpriced, I am NOT going to purchase it..." Once again William, you have clearly stated you have no idea what the manufacturing costs are for the American made Atlas yet YOU somehow can determine the Atlas is over-priced based on how you feel? That is ignorance in the simplest of terms. It's ok to be ignorant of business but better to keep your opinions to yourself so you don't prove yourself a fool.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: billt460
As do I.


Except when it comes to Atlas and other companies who you feel price their products too highly though right? This is morality of convenience. You've already stated that you do not care what it costs to develop products, only what the final price is. And you choose to whimsically make this decision based on your own perceived value barometer, not on the fact that you recognize the scope of their investment. Because you've already indicated, you really don't care about that. This is exactly the type of consumer behaviour that I talked about earlier.

Originally Posted By: billt460
And American companies are just as capable of ripping off consumers as the Chinese, or anyone else.
Except they aren't able to blatantly ignore copyright laws or IP laws because they end up in court. That's not the case for the Chinese rip-offs, and I covered that earlier.

An American company selling something massively overpriced for what they have into it could be considered "ripping off consumers", but if those consumers were willing to pay that price then were they truly being ripped off? People pay too much for stuff all the time, but that's not what we are discussing here which is knowingly purchasing something that is a copyright violation.

Originally Posted By: billt460
Back in the 60's I listened to much the same nonsense I hear today over Chinese goods, concerning Japanese cars back then. "They're all cheap junk"...... "You're taking food off American families tables when you buy one"...... "When you find yourself out of a job, you can eat your foreign car!"...... And all the rest of this same, lame, silly nonsense.


And Detroit became a wasteland. Not to say that GM, Ford and Chrysler shouldn't have seen the competition coming, they should have. However, early Japanese cars borrowed, legally, from American manufacturers with Toyota using GM's Stovebolt engine design for example.

Originally Posted By: billt460
No, The Japanese didn't copy our cars directly.


Exactly, so this example doesn't fit. Japan is just as much a victim of this as American and European companies, all of which have had their IP ripped off by the Chinese.

Originally Posted By: billt460
But just the same they created an entire new market of much lower cost foreign models that weren't going away. Import tariff's and all. All they did is get better.
Japan was a heavily industrialized nation right up until the US nuked them. Even then, they were still an advanced society with strong ethics and established industrial practices.

Originally Posted By: billt460
It's going to be the same dance with the Chinese.


It's not the same dance with the Chinese due to what we are discussing, as they have absolutely no qualms about stealing IP and ignoring copyright. It has already created serious issues for companies that invested in China for its cheap manufacturing. Apple, Cisco...etc. The tech world is full of examples. China is also a massive industrial powerhouse that is just getting warmed up. It can produce product at at scale that Japan could never dream of matching. They are still industrializing now.

A far better example to compare with what happened with Japan is South Korea. They have replicated quite handily the same dramatic ramp up that we saw with Japan in both electronics and on the automotive front.

Originally Posted By: billt460
It's already happening. The quality of their goods has vastly improved over what it was just a decade ago. Anyone who doesn't believe that is being ignorant.


The Chinese have ALWAYS been able to build a quality product. When Cisco outsourced the manufacture of some of their lower-tier products there, the quality was excellent because of strong QC. The same is the case for Apple and many others. The "junk" that comes out of China is from companies that don't follow through with rigorous QC because these manufacturing facilities have absolutely no problem subbing in sub-part components and other cost cutting measures if they can get away with it. This is entirely at odds with the way Japan does things. This is how you end up with leaded kids toys and poisoned pet food.

Originally Posted By: billt460
Today many of those same people, who back then cussed out every Japanese car owner they saw, now will tell you how wonderful their new Toyota Tundra or Nissan Frontier is. Compared to the overpriced, junky Silverado or Ram their buddy drives. It has become a never ending saga. Globalization of goods is not going away. In fact it's only going to get worse. Or better depending on how you look at it.


Yup, a hypocrite is always a hypocrite.

Originally Posted By: billt460
Products will be copied in other countries, and sold here. If you choose to buy them or not isn't going to matter, because others will. And in fact, as I have demonstrated, already are.



Somebody has to buy the original product though Bill, that most certainly matters. If nobody buys the product, there's nothing to clone/rip-off as I've already stated, so who are you trying to convince?

If however, telling yourself that helps you with your decision to buy goods whose existence is a clear violation of copyright, well, then you go right ahead. That's not something I have to deal with.

 

[bigj_16]

"Can't we all just get along?"-Rodney King

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
In the race to the bottom the blatant disregard for the value of copyright and patents stifles innovation, which in turn works against the very concept of "free market" that you so haughtily advocate.......


You are way over playing this. There is no, "race to the bottom". Never has been. Or for that matter any, "blatant disregard". It's a matter of simple economics. And it always will be. Purchasing the best product you require for the best possible price. Now, I'll readily admit that the clone bipod I purchased for $49.00, is not the same level of quality a $330.00 original Atlas model is. At least it shouldn't be. But the level of quality of the product that I received, for the price I paid was entirely acceptable. As I stated in my review, the unit performed more than satisfactorily.

As Tony Montana pointed out in the restaurant in the movie, "Scarface". Americans have to have someone they can point their fingers at and call the bad guy. In your case it's the consumer of these lower cost goods. That's simply foolish. Consumers react to the market at any given point in time based on their needs. If someone, ANYONE produces a product that is more in line with what they are willing to pay, they are going to buy it. They are not going to part with more money, just to be swell guys, and purchase something better they don't require, to help support a company that in all likelihood is fleecing them in the first place. Why would anyone with an ounce of financial common sense pay $45.00 for wrench they don't need, when a $6.00 one will work just as well for their intended purpose?

Harbor Freight has literally built an empire on that very premise. Many of their power tools are in fact cloned Chinese imported copies of other much more expensive products. For example, parts on several Honda engines will interchange with their Predator brand engines. No one is being arrested at Harbor Freight for either buying or selling these cloned goods. It's a way of life and always has been, long before they came along.

And that's regardless of who you want to make into the "bad guy" in this whole deal. Competition in business is very tough. Downright cutthroat at times. And the Chinese are making it tougher today, just as the Japanese were 50 years ago. We survived then, just as we will now. What's funny is now it's the Chinese, (Predator), who are cloning the Japanese, (Honda). This is happening worldwide, and always has been. It's not just these poor American companies that are being so unfairly "picked on".

Speaking for myself personally. I retired 3 years ago from a 45 year career in manufacturing. In that time I worked, earned, saved, and invested. I paid my fair share of taxes unselfishly when called upon to do so. And still do today, but now at a much lower rate. And in the process I supported more American companies, by buying more American goods from American workers than I could possibly count. Now I'm done worrying about it.

Today I think about myself.... For a welcome change. I come first, along with MY economy. Not the companies I buy from, or this countries for that matter. I have, "given at the office" so to speak, for the last 45 years. And today, if I find myself a nice little bipod for $49.00, instead of $330.00.... Guess what? I'm going to buy it. And I won't lose a seconds sleep over it. In this sale, I won, and Atlas lost. If you consider that to be, "blatant disregard", that's just too bad. The world isn't going to end. We are all not going to be eating rice 3 times a day. And the Sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

 

[bigj_16]

Originally Posted By: billt460
We are all not going to be eating rice 3 times a day. And the Sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

I only eat American rice. Calrose, to be specific.

 

[FloatingBrick]

Quote:
"Can't we all just get along?"-Rodney King


Rodney King probably plagiarized that, but it's okay because he said it cheaper.

 

[wwillson]

lock time