Asian brands overstate horsepower

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HP in general is relative figure with variations occurring under respective test conditions and methods, don't' give a blanket statement that is is generally quantifiable, over the years, car manufacturers have over stated HP figures, Ferrari was known for that among others,also many took liberties in quoting crankshaft BHP, what the world needs is a unified measuring standard, not different ones, then maybe we will see some kind of consistency in this field. I am on topic, it is my interpretation of the original intent of this post and my defence in that regard. I will also reiterate my original statement, ethics has never been a part of business anywhere, anytime and never will be, thats how the system is.
 
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Ethics, or the lack thereof, really aren't the point here. Kenw is correct, period. In the case of several of the Toyota products mentioned, Toyota simply used premium fuel in engines designed to increase output (through more aggressive spark advance) when using premium fuel. Now, as I already pointed out above, they are using regular fuel when testing. This is explained in the truthful, if cryptic, footnotes on Toyota.com. No, I'm not naive about business "ethics," but this is simply not a case of "unethical" overstatement of hp, just a change in test protocol.
 

Audi Junkie

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over charging junk, ordinary and un-reliable vehicles to gullible and delusional customers for a brand name or a badge or country of origin or pedigree.
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leave my country alone, stay on course and comment on cars, not countries
Since you want to stir the pot and make comments suggesting "over-priced junk from some countries", why don't you be more specific, as if we don't know what it is that you imply. Maybe you mean premium brands from Asia, but if you mean Euro brands you should be able to back that up. If Euro brands are so bad, I ask again, when will we see Indian cars that can take over the market and be sold for the same price, out-perform the Germans and NEVER have a maintenance issue? Guess what, they don't exist. You seem set on knocking cars and brands that you have no experience with. You also seem insecure and uninformed about the true nature of your home country, and choose to lash out with the term "racist". Sad. [ May 14, 2006, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Bio-T ]
 

Audi Junkie

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there is more to India than those pictures show
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all I ever saw in PA during my drives from NY was farm implements
...at least you did not catch the plague.
 
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Why are you bringing in India, did I ever bring it, fact that I live in India made you bring it up, thats all, you are indeed a prejudiced man, Asian cars sold in US are of Japanese and Korean origin, not one sold is of Indian, why do you need to see Indian brand anyways. I have owned and still own German automobiles along with Japanese, you have no idea about my vehicle ownership so don't make any presumptions on that part just because I live in India. Don't drag India into this and make it into a slur war, much as you would like to just because I live there. Posting of that truck pic is a racist put down, not embarrasing in any ways, just like I can put pictures of battered old Chevys going down US highways and imply that as the norm. What are you trying to imply with that? Why even bring India or those pics up, you are truly ill informed person living in your PA cocoon.
 

VNT

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so what your saying is they used special software to take advantage of the higher octane?? I doubt you would gain 20HP(10.5% increase) from a more agressive spark advance, ie 190 to 210 on the 3.0 engine. Lets not spin this, they got caught and the numbers now show it. I dont buy that expalantion and will call BS from Toyota on that. Dont you think all the other car companies would do likewise, ie run the test with 93 octane and grab 20 free HP;) Lets hope people see this for what it is and I hope bites them in the **S.
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk: Ethics, or the lack thereof, really aren't the point here. Kenw is correct, period. In the case of several of the Toyota products mentioned, Toyota simply used premium fuel in engines designed to increase output (through more aggressive spark advance) when using premium fuel. Now, as I already pointed out above, they are using regular fuel when testing. This is explained in the truthful, if cryptic, footnotes on Toyota.com. No, I'm not naive about business "ethics," but this is simply not a case of "unethical" overstatement of hp, just a change in test protocol.
 
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Originally posted by Audi Junkie: Yeah, a pic of a Chevy going down a US highway WOULD be racist. [Roll Eyes]
In this context, a battered rusted Chevy, yes, as that would be assumption that all Americans drive that and can only afford vehicles of that calibre which is far from the truth. By the way, don't ask me to backup my statements, if you are literate, go read the relevant and specific reports, trends and patterns of service records of automobiles printed every year by various organisations, not whorish magazine flowered up garbage and you will see my point. [Dummy!] [ August 31, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Gurkha ]
 
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Originally posted by kenw: once again, they WEREN'T INFLATING THE NUMBERS. They were using the full range of methods ALLOWED WITHIN the test specifications to maximize the HP results. repeat: All of the methods they used were ALLOWED under the old procedures. Those methods are not allowed under the new procedures. The test parameters were changed. No one was cheating on the parameters, the parameters had a wide range of tolerance or in some cases DIDN'T EXIST IN THE OLD TESTS. If you don't follow a rule that doesn't exist, how is that cheating?
/\ What he said. /\ And by the way, stop stirring the pot AJ. I believe that you are out of line. Steve
 
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Originally posted by VNT: so what your saying is they used special software to take advantage of the higher octane?? I doubt you would gain 20HP(10.5% increase) from a more agressive spark advance, ie 190 to 210 on the 3.0 engine. Lets not spin this, they got caught and the numbers now show it. I dont buy that expalantion and will call BS from Toyota on that. Dont you think all the other car companies would do likewise, ie run the test with 93 octane and grab 20 free HP;) Lets hope people see this for what it is and I hope bites them in the **S.
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Originally posted by ekpolk: Ethics, or the lack thereof, really aren't the point here. Kenw is correct, period. In the case of several of the Toyota products mentioned, Toyota simply used premium fuel in engines designed to increase output (through more aggressive spark advance) when using premium fuel. Now, as I already pointed out above, they are using regular fuel when testing. This is explained in the truthful, if cryptic, footnotes on Toyota.com. No, I'm not naive about business "ethics," but this is simply not a case of "unethical" overstatement of hp, just a change in test protocol.

No, with all due respect, you've got this wrong. It's not "special software" at all. It's the way that the bone stock, standard cars leave the dealer's lot in the hands of customers. I owned a VVT-i V-6 Camry that was in this configuration. I can't speak to actual hp numbers, but the difference between this engine on premium fuel and on regular is dramatic and noticeable. To me, it felt as if someone had stuffed a bath towel into the intake on the few occasions when I experimented with regular gas. Once again, this is explained in the footnotes on the Toyota website. They fn the "new" hp figures, noting that these are numbers generated running regular fuel. I've mentioned this twice already in this thread; please, check it out for yourself. Again, I'm not endorsing or condemning Toyota, just pointing out that there's a non-evil explanation for the change.
 

VNT

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EKPolk Your blind allegiance to their spin on this is commendable, but you will never see a 10.5% gain in HP via higher Octane on a test on a NA engine. If so Toyota simply could have put" PREMIUM FUEL RECOMMENDED" stickers on the gas caps and NOT derated the engine to its true HP #. Also think about this, just about every engine has knock sensors which will pull timing and decrease HP if it detects knock, so why wouldnt every other manufacturer just do the same slight of hand and grab the extra ponies for marketing purposes and run the test with Premium fuel even if the engine was designed to run on 87 Octane??? Also butt dynoes dont count, put your car on a dynojet and see what it does, it is quite interesting to see what your engine will put down for HP/TQ #'s. I was quite pleased with my PT GT, Flywheel HP/TQ #'s according to Chrysler are 220HP 245TQ at flywheel. I got 227 Hp and 252 at the wheels. Could you imagine a Camry owner with a 3.0 auto thinking that he should see about 80% of 210HP 168sh only to get 150sh?? I would think they wouldnt be too happy.
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Originally posted by ekpolk:
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Originally posted by VNT: so what your saying is they used special software to take advantage of the higher octane?? I doubt you would gain 20HP(10.5% increase) from a more agressive spark advance, ie 190 to 210 on the 3.0 engine. Lets not spin this, they got caught and the numbers now show it. I dont buy that expalantion and will call BS from Toyota on that. Dont you think all the other car companies would do likewise, ie run the test with 93 octane and grab 20 free HP;) Lets hope people see this for what it is and I hope bites them in the **S.
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk: Ethics, or the lack thereof, really aren't the point here. Kenw is correct, period. In the case of several of the Toyota products mentioned, Toyota simply used premium fuel in engines designed to increase output (through more aggressive spark advance) when using premium fuel. Now, as I already pointed out above, they are using regular fuel when testing. This is explained in the truthful, if cryptic, footnotes on Toyota.com. No, I'm not naive about business "ethics," but this is simply not a case of "unethical" overstatement of hp, just a change in test protocol.

No, with all due respect, you've got this wrong. It's not "special software" at all. It's the way that the bone stock, standard cars leave the dealer's lot in the hands of customers. I owned a VVT-i V-6 Camry that was in this configuration. I can't speak to actual hp numbers, but the difference between this engine on premium fuel and on regular is dramatic and noticeable. To me, it felt as if someone had stuffed a bath towel into the intake on the few occasions when I experimented with regular gas. Once again, this is explained in the footnotes on the Toyota website. They fn the "new" hp figures, noting that these are numbers generated running regular fuel. I've mentioned this twice already in this thread; please, check it out for yourself. Again, I'm not endorsing or condemning Toyota, just pointing out that there's a non-evil explanation for the change.

 
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Originally posted by Audi Junkie: Yeah, a pic of a Chevy going down a US highway WOULD be racist.
At least here in Virginia or in Pennsylvania, that Chevy likely wouldn't be too much of a mechnical mess due to the annual safety inspection (and the annual emissions inspections in some areas of PA and VA). I've seen some real junk on the streets of Illinois, but they have no safety inspection.
 
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Originally posted by ekpolk: No, with all due respect, you've got this wrong. It's not "special software" at all.
It's the usage of a knock sensor in conjunction with software in the PCM that retards the timing when knock is detected. Or, looking at it the other way, advances timing until knock is detected and then backs off a little.
 
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VNT: Blind allegiance??? I dumped that car over a year ago and haven't looked back. Again, if you want some data, why don't you go look at the data that's available, as I've recommended now four times in this thread. Sure, they're Toyota's figures, but they plainly show the difference that the subject setup creates: 210hp on premium and 190hp on regular. And the "butt dyno" may not count for you, but it's more info than you have to offer on this point. Are you seriously claiming that you can't feel a difference when your car is performing well and when it's not??? I certainly can and if you can't, you're probably hanging out at the wrong site. And get this, the owner's manual actually did say something to the effect that, "87 octane fuel is acceptable, but 91 octane or above is recommended for improved performance." Maybe they should just do it the way Infiniti does and "require" premium fuel, period, so they could stay with the higher hp figure. Yes, it is a knock sensor-based system, with the ECU programmed broadly to perform "acceptably" on a wide range of fuels. And no, I never expected my wheel hp to be anything close to the rated hp. Where did that come from? Who ever said it would be??? Respectfully, you need to do some actual homework before you come out swinging like this. . .
 
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And just what is "true horsepower"? I certainly feel that it's fair to advertise a higher hp, so long as they make clear that it can be had, but with the use of commonly available, yet optional, fuel. Do you have another definition of "true hp"?
 
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