Ash content in oil; Liqui Moly oil.

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19
Location
Rockville, MD
Liqui Moly has a 507 oil for TDI that has low ash content for Diesel engines for VW cars. Yet for gasoline engines, they recommend that i use 505 oil in VW engine. And the higher ash count vs 507 oil, more ash acts as lubricant in gasoline engine in VW. Is this true? Does higher ash content act as lubricant? Ive tried googling but i got bunch of pdf documents that arent related to my question. If ash is not a lubricant, should i use 507 oil in a VW gasoline engine for the pure benefit of low ash? Thanks in advance.
 
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1,464
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Gulf Coast, MS
Ash is a by product of liquid Moly's main additive Molybdenum. Molybdenum is the main additive in most (if not all) gear oils. It does well in gears but under high heat and with gasoline/diesel it causes a chemical reaction creating molybdenum disulfide. Which when heated breaks down (over time) causes ash. Which comes into contact with engine oil causes engine sludge. This is why many engineers don't put high levels of moly into engine oil. It has its benefits to an extent. As long as you kjeep the levels low the engine oil will be able to hold it in limbo until your next drain. People put a lot of stuff in oils because this or that helps. Head and shoulders has an extremely high level of zinc in it (compared to engine oil) yet I don't see anyone running to pour that in there engines. Engineering oil is a science. While some additives have their appropriate places for the main part oil companys figure millions of people will uses their product and keep low levels of solvents that way it doesn't cause damage in the long run. Sure a higher level is solvents can be used to help clean every now and then but for the most part to much in engine oil (made that way by engineers) would cause damage to engines.
 
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9,783
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Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: 3800Series
Ash is a by product of liquid Moly's main additive Molybdenum. Molybdenum is the main additive in most (if not all) gear oils. It does well in gears but under high heat and with gasoline/diesel it causes a chemical reaction creating molybdenum disulfide. Which when heated breaks down (over time) causes ash. Which comes into contact with engine oil causes engine sludge. This is why many engineers don't put high levels of moly into engine oil. It has its benefits to an extent. As long as you kjeep the levels low the engine oil will be able to hold it in limbo until your next drain. People put a lot of stuff in oils because this or that helps. Head and shoulders has an extremely high level of zinc in it (compared to engine oil) yet I don't see anyone running to pour that in there engines. Engineering oil is a science. While some additives have their appropriate places for the main part oil companys figure millions of people will uses their product and keep low levels of solvents that way it doesn't cause damage in the long run. Sure a higher level is solvents can be used to help clean every now and then but for the most part to much in engine oil (made that way by engineers) would cause damage to engines.
What? You don't have a clue what your talking about. I have only seen 1 liqui-moly oil that comes with mos2 already mixed in and I've heard of 2 others but I've never seen them so I can't say for sure. All their other oils contain moly,but it's not mos2 so I suggest actually researching before posting. Saves a lot of foot in mouth.
 
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792
Location
Denmark
The reason 507.00/504.00 oils are low ash and low TBN because they are formulated to be used in dpf equipped cars. 507.00/504.00 is also made for use in petrol engines in Europe due to the low sulphur petrol we have. The reason they spec 505.00 in the US is because of the high sulphur petrol you guys use.
 

KGB7

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19
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Rockville, MD
Originally Posted By: shDK
The reason 507.00/504.00 oils are low ash and low TBN because they are formulated to be used in dpf equipped cars. 507.00/504.00 is also made for use in petrol engines in Europe due to the low sulphur petrol we have. The reason they spec 505.00 in the US is because of the high sulphur petrol you guys use.
I'm aware that 507 is for engines with dpf. But is it safe to use 507 in gasoline engine? If it is safe is there benefit do to low content of ash in 507? Sorry if I wasnt being more clear in my original post.
 
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792
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Denmark
Originally Posted By: KGB7
Originally Posted By: shDK
The reason 507.00/504.00 oils are low ash and low TBN because they are formulated to be used in dpf equipped cars. 507.00/504.00 is also made for use in petrol engines in Europe due to the low sulphur petrol we have. The reason they spec 505.00 in the US is because of the high sulphur petrol you guys use.
I'm aware that 507 is for engines with dpf. But is it safe to use 507 in gasoline engine? If it is safe is there benefit do to low content of ash in 507? Sorry if I wasnt being more clear in my original post.
In Europe there is no problem using it. Using it for long drains in the US might be a problem due to low virgin TBN. And high sulphur petrol. If you take BMW as an example, they also spec LL01(not for dpf cars)in petrol engines, instead of the newer LL04(for dpf cars). I guess they do that for a reason.
 
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Originally Posted By: KGB7
But is it safe to use 507 in gasoline engine? If it is safe is there benefit do to low content of ash in 507?
Which specific car/engine do you have? Let's start there.
 

KGB7

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Rockville, MD
Originally Posted By: shDK
Originally Posted By: KGB7
Originally Posted By: shDK
The reason 507.00/504.00 oils are low ash and low TBN because they are formulated to be used in dpf equipped cars. 507.00/504.00 is also made for use in petrol engines in Europe due to the low sulphur petrol we have. The reason they spec 505.00 in the US is because of the high sulphur petrol you guys use.
I'm aware that 507 is for engines with dpf. But is it safe to use 507 in gasoline engine? If it is safe is there benefit do to low content of ash in 507? Sorry if I wasnt being more clear in my original post.
In Europe there is no problem using it. Using it for long drains in the US might be a problem due to low virgin TBN. And high sulphur petrol. If you take BMW as an example, they also spec LL01(not for dpf cars)in petrol engines, instead of the newer LL04(for dpf cars). I guess they do that for a reason.
I understand. Thanks for your time.
 

KGB7

Thread starter
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19
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Rockville, MD
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: KGB7
But is it safe to use 507 in gasoline engine? If it is safe is there benefit do to low content of ash in 507?
Which specific car/engine do you have? Let's start there.
I will be purchasing a 2015 VW Golf with 1.8 TSI engine in US. Its a Gen 3 ea888 engine. I dont have the car yet, but i want to get all my ducks in the row ahead of time, as this will be my first VW. Had a 2001 BMW for 10 years before that, thus im more knowledgeable on the subject for BMW. I had very good expirience with Liqui Moly on BMW for many years, so i would like to stick with same oil brand. Thanks to everyone that replied.
 
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According to this Lubrizol study, low ash (low SAPS) oil helps reduce valve deposits in direct injection engines, such as that 1.8 TSI that you're considering. As you probably know, valve deposits is a big issue with DI engines. So, from that standpoint, using a low SAPS oil might be beneficial. The downside is that low SAPS also means weaker additive package, which means you should shorten your oil change interval.
Quote:
more ash acts as lubricant in gasoline engine in VW.
Umm... no. smile
 
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961
Location
Ohio
Quote:
‘Low SAPS’ engine oil technologies: Low SAPS technologies are being introduced primarily in markets with both a high-diesel population and high-quality diesel fuel. Legislators in markets with high-diesel populations have driven diesel fuel quality to higher levels. That same legislation is now driving reduced tailpipe emissions via after-treatment devices such as diesel particulate filters. These filters can be blocked by metallic ash formed from oil burned during the combustion process. As a consequence of the introduction of DPFs, modern formulations are now using less of traditional ash-containing components. Ash for oils is measured by a standard method known as ‘Sulphated Ash’ via the ASTM D874 procedure. The main changes between full SAPS and mid/low SAPS formulations are described below. The use of metal-containing additives is becoming restricted, with knock-on effects over the whole lubricant formulation. Using ash-containing detergents such as the overbased calcium and magnesium salts of sulphonates, phenates and salicylates is now restricted by their ash content. With restrictions on the amount of ash-forming components, a balance has to be struck between detergents and the amount of ZDDP antiwear, which also contains ash. ZDDP also has a major effect on the lubricant’s phosphorus and sulphur content.
In a typical full SAPS additive package there is a higher combination of the detergent and ZDDP which can result in higher Sulphated Ash when the oil is burned. In Low SAPS oils these are traded out for a higher concentration of ashless dispersants and newer detergents that work without high levels of calcium or magnesium salts. The same is true with the antiwear additives and ZDDP - reduced ZDDP means increase in the effectiveness of other friction modifiers and antiwear additives. (this is why the VOA of a diesel engine oil meeting CJ-4 will show lower levels of these elements vs one that meets SN). Many of these oils are also cross compatible meaning they meet both the Service and Commercial category requirements. So to answer the original question:
Quote:
Is this true? Does higher ash content act as lubricant?
no it has nothing to do with lubrication and everything to do with detergency.
Quote:
If ash is not a lubricant, should i use 507 oil in a VW gasoline engine for the pure benefit of low ash?
Depending on the gasoline engine type and if the oil in question also meets SM or SN I see no issues. However I would typically recommend using a gasoline rated oil for a gasoline engine and a diesel oil for a diesel engine.
 
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13,920
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Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
According to this Lubrizol study, low ash (low SAPS) oil helps reduce valve deposits in direct injection engines, such as that 1.8 TSI that you're considering. As you probably know, valve deposits is a big issue with DI engines. So, from that standpoint, using a low SAPS oil might be beneficial. The downside is that low SAPS also means weaker additive package, which means you should shorten your oil change interval.
Shortened OCi may be seen as beneficial since dilution is also seen as a problem by many DI owners. Low SAPS, low Noack and low TEOST. All worth looking into for DI.
 
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13,920
Location
Kendall, FL
Most oils I've seen show ash values of either .9 or 1.00. What are considered the lowest ash content oils available, off the shelf?
 

KGB7

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Rockville, MD
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40,743
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Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: KGB7
I was on a VW forum, and US based Liqui Moly representative stated several times that ASH acts as lubricant.
Sounds like some things may have gotten lost in translation. What helps an engine lubricant is additives. The more additives you have, the more sulfated ash you will end up with when these additives burn off. But to say that ash acts as a lubricant is stretching it, IMO.
 
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961
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Sounds like some things may have gotten lost in translation. What helps an engine lubricant is additives. The more additives you have, the more sulfated ash you will end up with when these additives burn off. But to say that ash acts as a lubricant is stretching it, IMO.
Agreed. Except in the case where the additives are ashless (ie non-metalic salts described in my earlier post). To say ASH acts as a lubricant is more than stretching it...it's completely backwards thinking IMO. Certain lubricating additives create more ash content, not the other way around.
 
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