If properly applied synthetic has it's benefits, as better flow, improved MPG, less heat and less deposits which results in a cleaner engine. As far as cost, I think if you use synthetic oil and understand the benefits, cost wise can be beneficial but be comfortable in using synthetic oil.
Are synthetic worth the money?
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quote:I've been using synthetis for about 10 years. Even when I was making trips unnder consistant conditions, I never saw a significant difference in mileage between synthetic and the same viscosity dino oil. Also didn't see any noticable difference in oil temperatures. The differences in flow are insignificant unless you are living on the margins of the oils cold weather performance. My engines do stay remarkably clean on M1 with 6,000 mile change intervals. For me, the big value of a synthetic is being able to go 6,000 miles with confidence that the oil is still in good condition.
Originally posted by Bill Morris: If properly applied synthetic has it's benefits, as better flow, improved MPG, less heat and less deposits which results in a cleaner engine. As far as cost, I think if you use synthetic oil and understand the benefits, cost wise can be beneficial but be comfortable in using synthetic oil.
quote:You got it wrong, buddy. Synthetics will be bad for engine seals. Dino does not affect engine seals. No point using Synthetic unless you live in extreme climates. For example, extreme cold, like Antarctica. Or extreme heat, like Death Valley, Ca., or Dakar, Africa. Recently, I was asked to help a lady friend drive her car from California to her new home in Texas. Temperatures along the route were like 100-110 deg Fahrenheit. Now, if we had done the drive, I would have put Mobil 1 synthetic 15w-50 in the car. But on my suggestion, she has re-scheduled the trip for 12/2004. When the weather is cooler. So now, we will not need to pour that wretched synthetic stuff into her nice car. :-)
Originally posted by Dually: I switched back to Amsoil because I was told that synthetic are better on engine seals.Engine seals with dino oil will dry out I was told.
quote:Boy that's a load of pucky. Probably based on the synthetic will CAUSE leaks theory. In reality synthetic oil doesn't cause anywhere near the seal wear as petroleum based oils. Strange that every used car/truck I've purchased leaked oil when bought. Petroleum oil. Some I had to tear in and change seals. Some not. After seal change or clean up, and change over to synthetic oil (including M1 before I became a dealer) didn't leak oil. My new cars have never. ever leaked oil. Synthetic. My theory as to why petroleum oil is harder on seals applies mostly to turbo diesel and turbo gas vehicles that can coke the oil/have higher abrasive solids/soot. Most of this material won't necessarily cause high metal wear, but is quite hard on elastomers. Synthetic do oxidize as well, but not as fast nor at lower temps like petroleum based group I, II and sometimes III.
You got it wrong, buddy. Synthetics will be bad for engine seals.
quote:Thanks for your honest opinion. Re: "...synthetics will CAUSE leaks theory...." It is not theory. It is a FACT that they will cause leaks. Only a matter of time, but the leaks WILL come with synthetic. As for every used car you've bought leaking oil, well, every used car I've bought has failed to drip as much as ONE drop of oil on my driveway. All had dino oil in them from Day 1. However, I do not claim to know 100% of the used cars in the World. There may be some used cars out there where some Wise Guy pours in super-thin 0w-20 and then complains, Ah Ha --- Leaks!!!!!! Pablo, I don't know if you were active in the automotive field in the Early 1980's. The problem of leaks with Syn oil was a big issue then. Many big-name automakers sent out Tech Advisories to Dealers then. One of the Cure's put out by manufacturers then was, to completely tear down any motor before putting Syn oil in it. And to replace every seal and gasket with a brand-new one. If you have lived thru those times, you will believe that cars can and will leak with Syn oil.
Originally posted by Pablo:quote:Boy that's a load of pucky. Probably based on the synthetic will CAUSE leaks theory. In reality synthetic oil doesn't cause anywhere near the seal wear as petroleum based oils. Strange that every used car/truck I've purchased leaked oil when bought. Petroleum oil. Some I had to tear in and change seals. Some not. After seal change or clean up, and change over to synthetic oil (including M1 before I became a dealer) didn't leak oil. My new cars have never. ever leaked oil. Synthetic. My theory as to why petroleum oil is harder on seals applies mostly to turbo diesel and turbo gas vehicles that can coke the oil/have higher abrasive solids/soot. Most of this material won't necessarily cause high metal wear, but is quite hard on elastomers. Synthetic do oxidize as well, but not as fast nor at lower temps like petroleum based group I, II and sometimes III.
You got it wrong, buddy. Synthetics will be bad for engine seals.
Of course I'm familiar with the leaks in the early days of synthetic oil. Problem was solved.
I'm talking current oils.
Best I recall, in the early 80s there were a choice of about 3 synthetics, including AMSOIL and Mobil 1.
As I recall, the original Mobil 1 5W-20 did shrink some seal materials. This was corrected.
To the best of my knowledge, no synthetic currently on the market will attack any seal or gasket material in use today.
I expect that the comment that seals will eventually leak when using synthetic oil is true, as is the comment that seals will eventually leak when using non-synthetic oil.
In the past 25 years, I've know 3 or 4 cars to have serious leakage after changing to AMSOIL. In every case, the owner had not taken good care of the vehicle before changing. I've had some leakage on some of my cars during the same period.
Valve cover gaskets have gone bad--I could hardly blame AMSOIL, since there were a lot more of the same gaskets being replaced on the cars not using synthetic.
But, if you are happy thinking that synthetic will destroy your car, I certainly can't change your thinking.
quote:There were numerous synthetics in the early '80s in various forms and degrees of distribution, including EON from Pacer in Houston, Freedom Oil, All Proof, DN 600, Frigid Go, and so on. The ones which caused seal and gasket problems seemed to be diester and polyolester based lubricants. Mobil 1 was introduced in Europe a year or two before it was sold in the U.S.. By the time it hit the U.S. market Mobil had added a bit of polyolester to the formulation to deal with seal shrinking.
Originally posted by Dick in Falls Church: Best I recall, in the early 80s there were a choice of about 3 synthetics, including AMSOIL and Mobil 1. As I recall, the original Mobil 1 5W-20 did shrink some seal materials.
There seems to be more than a suspicion that using dino oils in place of synthetics has caused the problems with Audi/VW 1.8 turbos. Can't think what benefit there is in using an oil that could polymerise to drop out wax. Even if its changed at 3000 miles, residues could build up, esp. in an engine that has high specific output per litre and maybe a lower sump capacity. Maybe larger capacity engines, typically with low specific outputs, stress oil to a lesser extent?
This real true story.
I changed amsoil synthetic in winter in my 94 olds 88 LSS with 150K. In summer, when I switched to regular mobile clean, I got couple of drops from my oil pan. I tightened gasket bolts and wokrs fine. No Leaks.
But as I understand, when I changed to synthetic AMSOIL there was no leak before and during running but when I changed to again regular mobile clean, I got leaking oil on my driveway...
You figure out guys,what should cause to leak. I think, synthetic is attacke ongaskets.
Patel,
You saw the symptoms, but I disagree with your conclusion. Gaskets leak sometimes. This might have been coincidence. If syn oil did attack sealing materials, we'd hear of many more cases. The premium detergent package in some syn oils does remove the crud that had been forming a false seal in many cases, and syn oil will leak out those seals until they've had time to be reconditioned by ingredients in the oil.
Ken
quote:I'm sorry but, this is not a fair comparison since your supposed to be comparing the cost of oils and not filter changes. $9.50 for a filter is making your cost analysis skewed. People who are cost conscious do not buy overpriced filters like Motorcraft anyway.
Originally posted by wulimaster: With a typical gallon of 15w40 running around $6.50 and a best price on motocraft filter of $9.50 you would pay about $142 + tax on the full $142 for dino to complete 20,000 miles.
$9.50 is for a powerstroke oil filter.
quote:Ok. You use the Supertech filter at $6.50-$7.00 and I'll use the Motorcraft. This is a diesel we are talking about. BTW looking at the insides of the filters shows a tremendous difference in flow capacity. 9 large inlet holes versus 6 for the Supertech and more holes on the inside of the Motorcraft filter. I suspect there is a reason for this additional flow from the Ford filter but I could be wrong. It is the total cost of the oil change that I am comparing. It wouldn't be a fair cost comparison if I showed a lower cost for oil alone and the total real cost was higher because of the filters. If you like you can reuse the old filter twice to cut costs if you want it to be fair. You could cut costs by $10 more by using the synthetic blend 15w40 by Amsoil. I am pretty confident that it would last the full 20k miles with ease.
Originally posted by Lubricious:quote:I'm sorry but, this is not a fair comparison since your supposed to be comparing the cost of oils and not filter changes. $9.50 for a filter is making your cost analysis skewed. People who are cost conscious do not buy overpriced filters like Motorcraft anyway.
Originally posted by wulimaster: With a typical gallon of 15w40 running around $6.50 and a best price on motocraft filter of $9.50 you would pay about $142 + tax on the full $142 for dino to complete 20,000 miles.
MolaKule
Staff member
quote:Just as an FYI, this oil was made by Conoco and was an Alkylated Benzene. Gulf oil formulated a PAO synthetic was back in the late sixties, early seventies. The PAO was made by Bray Oil company.
DN 600
MolaKule
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quote:Huh?
Can't think what benefit there is in using an oil that could polymerise to drop out wax.
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MolaKule
Staff member
quote:Not so. All seals will wear, but there is NO correlation between modern synthetic oil usage and leaks. I have been using various synthetics from various brands since '74 and run in various engines from single cylinder lawn mowers to V8's, and have never seen any leaks from synthetic use. I have purchased used vehicles in which sludge buildup from dinos have degraded the seals. I had the seals replaced and synthetics installed. No leaks after that.
It is a FACT that they will cause leaks. Only a matter of time, but the leaks WILL come with synthetic.
quote:I found recently that the 2004 Mazda RX-8 Owner's Manual no longer has an admonition against the use of synthetics. That seems to indicate some progress since for a long time Mazda’s warranty was voided if synthetic motor oils were used. On the other hand, if you were to look at the warranty claims of a large automobile manufacturer, say Daimler-Chrysler, you'd find that synthetics are overrepresented in claims over the last 20 years involving seals and gaskets. You'd also find ester base synthetics more often than other synthetics. This may represent some sort of sampling issue, where a dealer or service rep only notes synthetic usage because he consciously or unconsciously relates synthetics to seal and gasket problems. On the other hand, it could represent some failure on the part of small companies to take into account the wide variety of applications, gasket and seal materials, and conditions of use when they formulate a motor oil using synthetic base stocks, particularly esters. Exxon Mobil, for example, continuously evaluates its production and experimental motor oils in test vehicles. It also tests competitors’ products. In addition it considers field experience in a variety of uses, including stationary equipment, trucks, automobiles, oil heaters, and oddball equipment you didn't even know existed. Its current products represent four decades of experience with about a 2/3 share of the synthetic motor oil market. A smaller company may not be able to afford that kind of testing. I notice, for example, two of the motor oils on the shelves at a local speed shop, Neo Synthetic and Red Line, are not even API licensees. I'd be cautious about filling a crankcase on an automobile under warranty full of an exotic mixture, with quirky additive packages, lacking an API or ACEA certification, unless I could afford to replace the engine out-of-pocket. I'd also be cautious when dealing with former Eastern Bloc vehicles like the Lada, the ZIV, or the Ural motorcycle. Some of their seals and gaskets are comparable to pre-WWII American cars.
Originally posted by MolaKule: Not so. All seals will wear, but there is NO correlation between modern synthetic oil usage and leaks. I have been using various synthetics from various brands since '74 and run in various engines from single cylinder lawn mowers to V8's, and have never seen any leaks from synthetic use. I have purchased used vehicles in which sludge buildup from dinos have degraded the seals. I had the seals replaced and synthetics installed. No leaks after that.
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