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Are Michelins overpriced and overrated OR
- Thread starter Blue_Goose
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You can generally get the same tire for less $$ in other brands than Michelin. You pay for the advertising, etc. That's not to say that Michelin tires are junk. They have good and bad ones like the rest. They just tend to be pricier.
The marketing does work though. When I sold tires, I would often have the clueless come to me and say, "I don't know what I need, but I think I want Michelins - I think they're the best, aren't they?"
The marketing does work though. When I sold tires, I would often have the clueless come to me and say, "I don't know what I need, but I think I want Michelins - I think they're the best, aren't they?"
"I don't know anything about the Destiny/Harmony. I can't say I'm a fan of the Spectrum, but its quality seems to be OK for it's market segment and price."
That is the point, isn't it ? The Harmony is something like the #3 rated all season tire at Tirerack, while even you agree that the Toyo is 'ok'. Driving up our kind of steep driveway in the rain the Toyo tires will often slip while the Michelins never do; this simple observation is one reason why we ended up spending more for a good, long lasting all season tire.
That is the point, isn't it ? The Harmony is something like the #3 rated all season tire at Tirerack, while even you agree that the Toyo is 'ok'. Driving up our kind of steep driveway in the rain the Toyo tires will often slip while the Michelins never do; this simple observation is one reason why we ended up spending more for a good, long lasting all season tire.
My point was that for the price, there are comparable or better tires out there than what michelin offers.
According to the tire rack, a 185/65-14 all season, S rated Harmony is $77 each. They sell the all season high performance Yokohama H4S for $49 each. That's a $112 difference for a set of tires (in a small size at that). With the exception of treadwear (60,000 mile warranty vs. 80,000 mile), I can almost guarantee that the H4S is a superior tire. I've had them on my car for almost a year and have been perfectly satisfied with them, for an all season tire.
Since Toyo doesn't do mail order sales, I can't find a price for them, but iirc, the Proxes TPT are about the same price as the yokohamas but with slightly less grip and longer treadwear. I'm pretty sure that the Spectrum (which I wouldn't want on my car either) would be around $40 or less since it's meant to be downmarket from the TPT.
If I almost doubled the price I was paying for a set of tires I'd expect a big improvement too, but that doesn't mean the more expensive tire is a better brand. The reason I said the Spectrums seemed "OK" was that working at a tire shop, the customers didn't seem to have any major complaints. I wouldn't want them (or any regular "all season" tire) on my car, but for people who want that kind of tire, they seemed good enough.
Not trying to be too argumentative, but the survey results on the tire rack are not quantitative whatsoever.
According to the tire rack, a 185/65-14 all season, S rated Harmony is $77 each. They sell the all season high performance Yokohama H4S for $49 each. That's a $112 difference for a set of tires (in a small size at that). With the exception of treadwear (60,000 mile warranty vs. 80,000 mile), I can almost guarantee that the H4S is a superior tire. I've had them on my car for almost a year and have been perfectly satisfied with them, for an all season tire.
Since Toyo doesn't do mail order sales, I can't find a price for them, but iirc, the Proxes TPT are about the same price as the yokohamas but with slightly less grip and longer treadwear. I'm pretty sure that the Spectrum (which I wouldn't want on my car either) would be around $40 or less since it's meant to be downmarket from the TPT.
If I almost doubled the price I was paying for a set of tires I'd expect a big improvement too, but that doesn't mean the more expensive tire is a better brand. The reason I said the Spectrums seemed "OK" was that working at a tire shop, the customers didn't seem to have any major complaints. I wouldn't want them (or any regular "all season" tire) on my car, but for people who want that kind of tire, they seemed good enough.
Not trying to be too argumentative, but the survey results on the tire rack are not quantitative whatsoever.
"My point was that for the price, there are comparable or better tires out there than what michelin offers.
According to the tire rack, a 185/65-14 all season, S rated Harmony is $77 each. They sell the all season high performance Yokohama H4S for $49 each...."
The Yokohama H4s isn't offered in a size for the older car, Michelin offers one, but they do have a size for the newer one; 205/65-15. The H4s costs $67, has a 500 wear rating, and per the Tirerack ratings has a lot worse winter ratings than the Michelin Harmony. They'd be unacceptable to me as I need at least 'all green'. They're also rated worse for wear. The Michelin Harmony with a 740 wear rating costs $78, which is a special that they have in that size. Saving $44 to get tires that don't provide better performance than the Michelins, has worse winter ratings and won't last as long, doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
As I said previously I wish I would have purchased the Michelins on the older car instead of the Toyos. I'm always interested in hearing about good values in tires, so let me hear of another model to consider.
According to the tire rack, a 185/65-14 all season, S rated Harmony is $77 each. They sell the all season high performance Yokohama H4S for $49 each...."
The Yokohama H4s isn't offered in a size for the older car, Michelin offers one, but they do have a size for the newer one; 205/65-15. The H4s costs $67, has a 500 wear rating, and per the Tirerack ratings has a lot worse winter ratings than the Michelin Harmony. They'd be unacceptable to me as I need at least 'all green'. They're also rated worse for wear. The Michelin Harmony with a 740 wear rating costs $78, which is a special that they have in that size. Saving $44 to get tires that don't provide better performance than the Michelins, has worse winter ratings and won't last as long, doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
As I said previously I wish I would have purchased the Michelins on the older car instead of the Toyos. I'm always interested in hearing about good values in tires, so let me hear of another model to consider.
I have had nothing but great service from my Michelins. I have had them on a few different pick ups and they handle loads well have good traction and usually get between 60 to 70k out of them.
Like I said, the Tirerack's survey ratings are not quantitative at all. They're nothing more than subjective evaluations by people who may, or may not have any idea what they're talking about.
I don't know how much snow you get in your area, but I've driven on the H4S in a few inches in a front wheel drive, open differential car and didn't have any trouble getting around.
The H4S (and V4S) will most likely give better dry and wet performance than the Harmony and may or may not give the same or better snow performance, at a lower price than the Michelins.
Like I said, the Proxes TPT is a much better tire than the Spectrum and is still significantly cheaper than the Harmony.
I don't know how much snow you get in your area, but I've driven on the H4S in a few inches in a front wheel drive, open differential car and didn't have any trouble getting around.
The H4S (and V4S) will most likely give better dry and wet performance than the Harmony and may or may not give the same or better snow performance, at a lower price than the Michelins.
Like I said, the Proxes TPT is a much better tire than the Spectrum and is still significantly cheaper than the Harmony.
"Like I said, the Tirerack's survey ratings are not quantitative at all. They're nothing more than subjective evaluations by people who may, or may not have any idea what they're talking about. "
Depending upon the tires being compared they're based upon hundreds of subjective evaluations with comments. It'd always be nice to have more data for weighting the ratings, such as vehicle, region, load/speed, etc., but I still find the data more useful than any one opinion. In the case of the Yokohamas vs the Michelins the averages from the hundred of Tirerack evaluations indicate that the Yokohamas don't wear as well and aren't as good in the snow, something that is also reflected in the 1010 evaluations below.
"Like I said, the Proxes TPT is a much better tire than the Spectrum and is still significantly cheaper than the Harmony."
It's also not as good of an all season tire, see the 1010 ratings below. Unlike a 'performance' tire where one is interested in how well it may do in one or a few areas, an all season tire is really a game of minimizing weaknesses, and the ratings below indicate that the Michelins are better all season tires.
Also, it's a moot point for the car in question, the one currently with the Toyos, as neither the Toyos or Yokohamas are offered in the needed size (205/70-14).
Michelin HarmonyTM
Premium
Dry: 4.4 Wet: 4.2 Snow: 3.8 Handling: 4 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4 Treadwear: 4.1
Yokohama AVID H4S
High Performance
Dry: 4.6 Wet: 4.1 Snow: 2.8 Handling: 4.2 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4.1 Treadwear: 4
"Honda Accord - 205 65R 15 - If you want better cornering go to a V- rated. Winter conditions in certain parts of Canada require a dedicated winter tire as this tire just doesn't have the grip, I tell you from experiencing winter in Barrie Ontario.**
"'93 Honda Prelude SR-V - 205/55/15 - Amazing grip/handling on dry/wet. Absolutely CRAP in the snow/ice. Treadwear rating is misleading, I previously had the AVID H4 on my car for two years, while these are pretty much toast after ONE year, and these are suppose to last longer (I don't smoke the tires, this is normal driving)."
Toyo Proxes TPT
High Performance
Dry: 4.6 Wet: 4.1 Snow: 2.8 Handling: 4.3 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4.1 Treadwear: 3.9
"Please read my other review of the good features of this tire. This review is only for Snow. I have never owned a worse tire for snow traction. At first I thought that it may have been an icy layer under the snow. Anyway I used old rims to get some snow tires, and it pulled great. I put these tires back on, since there is no snow in the forcast. We have about1/2 inch of dry powered snow on the driveway. I couldn't move up my slight grade!!!
Depending upon the tires being compared they're based upon hundreds of subjective evaluations with comments. It'd always be nice to have more data for weighting the ratings, such as vehicle, region, load/speed, etc., but I still find the data more useful than any one opinion. In the case of the Yokohamas vs the Michelins the averages from the hundred of Tirerack evaluations indicate that the Yokohamas don't wear as well and aren't as good in the snow, something that is also reflected in the 1010 evaluations below.
"Like I said, the Proxes TPT is a much better tire than the Spectrum and is still significantly cheaper than the Harmony."
It's also not as good of an all season tire, see the 1010 ratings below. Unlike a 'performance' tire where one is interested in how well it may do in one or a few areas, an all season tire is really a game of minimizing weaknesses, and the ratings below indicate that the Michelins are better all season tires.
Also, it's a moot point for the car in question, the one currently with the Toyos, as neither the Toyos or Yokohamas are offered in the needed size (205/70-14).
Michelin HarmonyTM
Premium
Dry: 4.4 Wet: 4.2 Snow: 3.8 Handling: 4 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4 Treadwear: 4.1
Yokohama AVID H4S
High Performance
Dry: 4.6 Wet: 4.1 Snow: 2.8 Handling: 4.2 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4.1 Treadwear: 4
"Honda Accord - 205 65R 15 - If you want better cornering go to a V- rated. Winter conditions in certain parts of Canada require a dedicated winter tire as this tire just doesn't have the grip, I tell you from experiencing winter in Barrie Ontario.**
"'93 Honda Prelude SR-V - 205/55/15 - Amazing grip/handling on dry/wet. Absolutely CRAP in the snow/ice. Treadwear rating is misleading, I previously had the AVID H4 on my car for two years, while these are pretty much toast after ONE year, and these are suppose to last longer (I don't smoke the tires, this is normal driving)."
Toyo Proxes TPT
High Performance
Dry: 4.6 Wet: 4.1 Snow: 2.8 Handling: 4.3 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4.1 Treadwear: 3.9
"Please read my other review of the good features of this tire. This review is only for Snow. I have never owned a worse tire for snow traction. At first I thought that it may have been an icy layer under the snow. Anyway I used old rims to get some snow tires, and it pulled great. I put these tires back on, since there is no snow in the forcast. We have about1/2 inch of dry powered snow on the driveway. I couldn't move up my slight grade!!!
Most OEM Michelins do not perform very well. They usually provide mediocre traction when brand new and get worse as they wear. The only thing that they have going for them is treadwear and rolling resistance (which is why I believe car manufacturers use them - to get better gas mileage).
For example, my GS-R came with Michelins XGT V4s. They were average on dry pavement, marginal in rain and horrid in the snow... and that was when they were brand new. I had to replace one once, and it cost me $126 for just the tire. They did, however, last me over 66k miles.
After they wore out, I've used other brands (Dunlop and Firestone). The Dunlops only lasted about 50k miles, while the Firestones will probably get me about 55-60k miles. I also noticed a slight decrease in gas mileage.
I've heard that the Energy line is pretty much the same... long lasting, less rolling resistance, but horrible traction.
For example, my GS-R came with Michelins XGT V4s. They were average on dry pavement, marginal in rain and horrid in the snow... and that was when they were brand new. I had to replace one once, and it cost me $126 for just the tire. They did, however, last me over 66k miles.
After they wore out, I've used other brands (Dunlop and Firestone). The Dunlops only lasted about 50k miles, while the Firestones will probably get me about 55-60k miles. I also noticed a slight decrease in gas mileage.
I've heard that the Energy line is pretty much the same... long lasting, less rolling resistance, but horrible traction.
"Most OEM Michelins do not perform very well. They usually provide mediocre traction when brand new and get worse as they wear."
I agree, at least regarding the LTX A/S tires that came on the truck. I had to sipe them to keep them from wandering in the rain and they'd still spin pretty easily. Even with 4wd engaged I'd be sliding all over the road with just frost, and they were worse on ice. They did ok on fresh snow that wasn't too deep, but spun easily on wet grass. For a long lasting highway tire the LTX M/S has a much better reputation, but they aren't offered in the size that I need so I ended up with a set of Goodyear Wrangler 'Silent Armor'. They seem to be even more quiet than the Michelin LTX A/S, have a 'light A/T' tread, and unusual for Load range E truck tires they have a 50k mile tread life warranty. Also unusual they're even severe snow rated, so they'll be considered as traction devices around here.
I agree, at least regarding the LTX A/S tires that came on the truck. I had to sipe them to keep them from wandering in the rain and they'd still spin pretty easily. Even with 4wd engaged I'd be sliding all over the road with just frost, and they were worse on ice. They did ok on fresh snow that wasn't too deep, but spun easily on wet grass. For a long lasting highway tire the LTX M/S has a much better reputation, but they aren't offered in the size that I need so I ended up with a set of Goodyear Wrangler 'Silent Armor'. They seem to be even more quiet than the Michelin LTX A/S, have a 'light A/T' tread, and unusual for Load range E truck tires they have a 50k mile tread life warranty. Also unusual they're even severe snow rated, so they'll be considered as traction devices around here.
I'd rather hear from real drivers then a guy on a test track that real drivers wont be on or at those speeds.quote:
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
"Like I said, the Tirerack's survey ratings are not quantitative at all. They're nothing more than subjective evaluations by people who may, or may not have any idea what they're talking about. "
Depending upon the tires being compared they're based upon hundreds of subjective evaluations with comments. It'd always be nice to have more data for weighting the ratings, such as vehicle, region, load/speed, etc., but I still find the data more useful than any one opinion. In the case of the Yokohamas vs the Michelins the averages from the hundred of Tirerack evaluations indicate that the Yokohamas don't wear as well and aren't as good in the snow, something that is also reflected in the 1010 evaluations below.
"Like I said, the Proxes TPT is a much better tire than the Spectrum and is still significantly cheaper than the Harmony."
It's also not as good of an all season tire, see the 1010 ratings below. Unlike a 'performance' tire where one is interested in how well it may do in one or a few areas, an all season tire is really a game of minimizing weaknesses, and the ratings below indicate that the Michelins are better all season tires.
Also, it's a moot point for the car in question, the one currently with the Toyos, as neither the Toyos or Yokohamas are offered in the needed size (205/70-14).
Michelin HarmonyTM
Premium
Dry: 4.4 Wet: 4.2 Snow: 3.8 Handling: 4 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4 Treadwear: 4.1
Yokohama AVID H4S
High Performance
Dry: 4.6 Wet: 4.1 Snow: 2.8 Handling: 4.2 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4.1 Treadwear: 4
"Honda Accord - 205 65R 15 - If you want better cornering go to a V- rated. Winter conditions in certain parts of Canada require a dedicated winter tire as this tire just doesn't have the grip, I tell you from experiencing winter in Barrie Ontario.**
"'93 Honda Prelude SR-V - 205/55/15 - Amazing grip/handling on dry/wet. Absolutely CRAP in the snow/ice. Treadwear rating is misleading, I previously had the AVID H4 on my car for two years, while these are pretty much toast after ONE year, and these are suppose to last longer (I don't smoke the tires, this is normal driving)."
Toyo Proxes TPT
High Performance
Dry: 4.6 Wet: 4.1 Snow: 2.8 Handling: 4.3 Comfort: 4.2 Noise: 4.1 Treadwear: 3.9
"Please read my other review of the good features of this tire. This review is only for Snow. I have never owned a worse tire for snow traction. At first I thought that it may have been an icy layer under the snow. Anyway I used old rims to get some snow tires, and it pulled great. I put these tires back on, since there is no snow in the forcast. We have about1/2 inch of dry powered snow on the driveway. I couldn't move up my slight grade!!!
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