Are engines really engineered to use 5W-20?

[Bryanccfshr]

There is suprisingly little practical difference between Different grades of Energy conserving oil.

The difference in economy perfromance between a 0w20 and a 10w30 is measured in the single digits percentile. For the everyday driver this can be lost in the noise of traffic, wind, other driving conditions, and fuel quality variations.

As a Best Practice I Prefer to use the recomended oil viscosity. As a practical matter when there is a sale or clearance and it is only available in 5w30 or 10w30 I will buy it and run it on my '08 jeep JK. WHen it runs out I will go back to 5w20 or 0w20. I am a little more particular in the 4.6 3v Ford Explorer and only run 5w20 in it since I can actually eek some mileage out of that platform..
The Jeep just burns fuel like it's 1969 and the stuff is almost free even with 5w20.

Now once you get above the energy conserving viscosities such as GC or 40wts you are risking a performance loss.
I have run back to back 40'wts vs 5w20's (rotella Synthetic 5w40 vs motorcraft 5w20 in a mistusbishi 2.4 engine run in South Texas for example) and have experienced a notable difference in mileage and performance giving me motivation to stay away from overly viscous oils.

The difference between a 5w20 and a 5w30 is negligable. Look at the fuel economy test required to gain the energy conserving lable on motor oil in the SWRI Sequence VIB test.
http://www.swri.org/4ORG/d08/GasTests/VIBtest/default.htm

Pass/fail criteria for ILSAC GF-4 and API SM (minimum %FEI versus ASTM BC)

SAE 0W-20 and 5W-20 viscosity grades:

2.3% min. after 16 hours aging (Phase I FEI)

2.0% min. after 96 hours aging (Phase II FEI)

SAE 0W-30 and 5W-30 viscosity grades:

1.8% min. after 16 hours aging (Phase I FEI)

1.5% min. after 96 hours aging (Phase II FEI)

All other SAE viscosity grades:

1.1% min. after 16 hours aging (Phase I FEI)

0.8% min. after 96 hours aging (Phase II FEI)

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
The timing chain tensioners on the Ford 5.4 Triton 3 valve motors are adjusted & activated by oil pressure provided by the 5W-20 viscocity along with proper function of the VTC's!!!


If they can't handle the difference in viscosity betweeen a 20 and a 30 then they can't handle a 15F change in oil temperature. What a lousy engine (assuming you are correct).


Yeah. Unless everyone is subjected to the infamous Texas BIG HEAT, they're transitioning from off the sensible visc scale through everything in between with any oil. It's the last few ticks where they're most alike that people are debating over.

..but..

Are engines really engineered to use 5W-20?

A qualified YES. Any engine spec'd for a 5w-30 ..that may still exist or has existed from about from the mid-late 70's through to about the late 90's would typically be running sheared 30 grade oil. If they weren't engineered to run on it, there are millions upon millions of miracles that ignorantly run for millions upon millions of miles where they should have self destructed.

I'm sure the engineers who built them took that into account.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
The timing chain tensioners on the Ford 5.4 Triton 3 valve motors are adjusted & activated by oil pressure provided by the 5W-20 viscocity along with proper function of the VTC's!!!


If they can't handle the difference in viscosity betweeen a 20 and a 30 then they can't handle a 15F change in oil temperature.


...beat me to it.

I have 10w-30 synth in my K24. I only use 20 weights in winter to help out with the winter fuel situation.

My only caution against 30 weight is if you run them in place of a 20 weight, make shure they are good NAME BRAND SM-spec oil, 5w-30 prefered over 10w-30 in anything less than warm temps. Don't run any outdated or underspeced oils. Synth 30s or at least Blends are a good alternative.

imo, cars with stick shift are driven a bit harder on the oil, maybe 30 is a good idea there. That is all.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: SAJEFFC
...there probably is way more leeway on viscosity on these new engines than we think. Just my .02

Ya. I think so. Viscosity is always radically changing with engine temp and outdoor temp with any weight you put in.
Pressure is running all over with temp and RPM, too.
As long as an oil film is maintained to keep the metal parts apart, you're good.

 

[d00df00d]

Are we forgetting that the metal expands with temperature as well? Doesn't that reduce the clearances?

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Are we forgetting that the metal expands with temperature as well? Doesn't that reduce the clearances?


Depends. The oil pump on my car uses steel gears in an aluminum housing. The clearances open up when hot. Pistons expand quicker than cylinders tightening up the clearance. Rods and mains don't really change much during the warmup process. When I blueprint an engine I make sure the rods and crank and block are all the same temperature because it does make a difference if one is hotter or coler than the other. Not sure if this helps.

 

[Dave Sherman]

Now this just occurred to me; if the oil life monitor is going on the assumption that it has 5W-20 in it, would it still be accurate to go by the OLM for changing 5W-30, or would I need to change it sooner? Yeah, I suppose a UOA would answer that question, but I don't have a feel for whether that means no change in OCI or shortening the OCI.

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
The timing chain tensioners on the Ford 5.4 Triton 3 valve motors are adjusted & activated by oil pressure provided by the 5W-20 viscocity along with proper function of the VTC's!!!


If they can't handle the difference in viscosity betweeen a 20 and a 30 then they can't handle a 15F change in oil temperature. What a lousy engine (assuming you are correct).

If you follow what the manual says to use 5W-20 you will have no problems in any temperature! I operate in 100 degree heat to -0 temps within the seasons! No problemo whatsoever! The 5.4 is one stout engine! http://www.millionmilevan.com Proves that! period!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
The timing chain tensioners on the Ford 5.4 Triton 3 valve motors are adjusted & activated by oil pressure provided by the 5W-20 viscocity along with proper function of the VTC's!!!


The tensioners on my 5.4L have no issue with 5w40. In fact the engine is the quietest its ever been on this oil.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Depends. The oil pump on my car uses steel gears in an aluminum housing. The clearances open up when hot. Pistons expand quicker than cylinders tightening up the clearance. Rods and mains don't really change much during the warmup process. When I blueprint an engine I make sure the rods and crank and block are all the same temperature because it does make a difference if one is hotter or coler than the other. Not sure if this helps.

It definitely helps. What I'm hearing is that it depends what the parts in question are made of, which makes sense.

Thanks!

 

[ekpolk]

Well, FWIW, here is the tantalizingly vague language Toyota used in the now-somewhat-infamous back-spec TSB, issued back in 2006.

Quote:
ILSAC GF–4 SAE 5W–20
This oil has been set as the Toyota genuine engine oil, starting in February 2006 for the U.S. This oil is superior in terms of fuel economy, engine protection, and cold starting performance.


ILSAC GF–4 SAE 0W–20
This oil has even better fuel efficiency and cold starting performance than 5W–20. Initial application for 0W–20 is in the 2006 model year 2AZ–FE engine and will be used in new engines to be developed.


Emphasis added by me. This would seem to indicate (maybe) that Toyota intends (and has intended for the last three years at least) to design their new engines with the use of thinner oils intended. For those of you who have not seen it before, it's EG018-06

 

[river_rat]

Probably so. In any case, the "better protection" intention probably comes from the ILSAC GF-4 standard for wear combined with the fast(er?) heat removal of the 14% thinner 20 weight.
Like I say again, as long as the oil film is intact, your good.
My Tacoma calls for 5W-20 or 0W-20 so I use that.
I wouldn't worry about using a XW-30 in it (or a mix of the two) though.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
This would seem to indicate (maybe) that Toyota intends (and has intended for the last three years at least) to design their new engines with the use of thinner oils intended.


This is very true. But as I explained in my previous post, the only property than needs to be addressed in engines using low viscosity is max oil temperature. It can be accomplished by larger oil pan, high oil levels, or oil coolers.

Now, the part about 5W20 vs 0W20 doesn't make any sense to me. 0W20 oils don't shear down, do they?

 

[pzev]

Lol, the million mile van guy really highlights just how pointless this all is. He mentions he didn't do an oil change for 55k once...LOL! Seems if we all just forget about our cars, they last a long time. I am curious when his first alternator failed...as he probobly started using rebuilds at that time, which would explain why he has gone through 3 of them (1 original, 3 rebuilds).
That said, his oil consumption is 1 quart per tank of gas (300-400 miles?)...which is rather high. Though, his engine does have 1,000,000+ miles

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
The timing chain tensioners on the Ford 5.4 Triton 3 valve motors are adjusted & activated by oil pressure provided by the 5W-20 viscocity along with proper function of the VTC's!!!


The tensioners on my 5.4L have no issue with 5w40. In fact the engine is the quietest its ever been on this oil.

If your 5.4 is pre-2004, you do not have the 3 valve design, & the VTC's....The VTC's operate on cold startup based on the 5W-20 viscocity along with the timing chain tensioners.....

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: pzev
Lol, the million mile van guy really highlights just how pointless this all is. He mentions he didn't do an oil change for 55k once...LOL! Seems if we all just forget about our cars, they last a long time. I am curious when his first alternator failed...as he probobly started using rebuilds at that time, which would explain why he has gone through 3 of them (1 original, 3 rebuilds).
That said, his oil consumption is 1 quart per tank of gas (300-400 miles?)...which is rather high. Though, his engine does have 1,000,000+ miles


Allrighy then, I assume you'll be our first-up volunteer to try running a 50k mile OCI! You may, of course, choose whatever oil you prefer (filter too even). And you can top off with any other oil that you like. OK then, when are we starting this little science experiment?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
The timing chain tensioners on the Ford 5.4 Triton 3 valve motors are adjusted & activated by oil pressure provided by the 5W-20 viscocity along with proper function of the VTC's!!!


The tensioners on my 5.4L have no issue with 5w40. In fact the engine is the quietest its ever been on this oil.

If your 5.4 is pre-2004, you do not have the 3 valve design, & the VTC's....The VTC's operate on cold startup based on the 5W-20 viscocity along with the timing chain tensioners.....


Yes, its a 2V obviously, since it is an '02. But you made specific mention of the tensioners, which are common throughout the Modular family.

Riddle me this: When its -35C out, what visc are the VCT's seeing with Castrol 5w20 in the pan? I'll give you a clue: higher than Delvac 1 5w40......

The cP of Castrol GTX 5w20 is 60,000 at -35
the cP of M1 TDT 5w40 is 25,400 at -35

Hmmmmmmmmm............

 

[pzev]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk

Allrighy then, I assume you'll be our first-up volunteer to try running a 50k mile OCI! You may, of course, choose whatever oil you prefer (filter too even). And you can top off with any other oil that you like. OK then, when are we starting this little science experiment?

lol, I love my car too much!

That said, I wouldn't be against running my oil for as long as a UAO said it was safe. Problem is, I am a cheap college student, and therefore those UOA's would add some extra fluff to my already overly fluffed college student budget. If it wasn't for wallmart, I wouldn't even be able to use synthetic!!!

My car is easy on oil anyways, it wouldn't be exciting enough for the bitog crowd. Lets find someone with a Toyota 1mz and get them to do it.

 

[pzev]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Yes, its a 2V obviously, since it is an '02. But you made specific mention of the tensioners, which are common throughout the Modular family.

Riddle me this: When its -35C out, what visc are the VCT's seeing with Castrol 5w20 in the pan? I'll give you a clue: higher than Delvac 1 5w40......

The cP of Castrol GTX 5w20 is 60,000 at -35
the cP of M1 TDT 5w40 is 25,400 at -35

Hmmmmmmmmm............


I think if its -35C outside, the tensioners are the least of your worries lol! I could just see someone freezing their [censored] off going "[censored], I hope my tensioners are ok!". More like "my poor joints" or "I can't feel my hands!!!".

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: pzev
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Yes, its a 2V obviously, since it is an '02. But you made specific mention of the tensioners, which are common throughout the Modular family.

Riddle me this: When its -35C out, what visc are the VCT's seeing with Castrol 5w20 in the pan? I'll give you a clue: higher than Delvac 1 5w40......

The cP of Castrol GTX 5w20 is 60,000 at -35
the cP of M1 TDT 5w40 is 25,400 at -35

Hmmmmmmmmm............


I think if its -35C outside, the tensioners are the least of your worries lol! I could just see someone freezing their [censored] off going "[censored], I hope my tensioners are ok!". More like "my poor joints" or "I can't feel my hands!!!".


We saw that temperature a few times over the winter here.

My point is that the "evil" 5w40 is actually THINNER at colder temperatures than the aforementioned 5w20.