API cert question
- Thread starter BillyE
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wemay
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Yes, different specs. The one that stands out for me is that the second image shows the oil is dual rated for diesels and non-diesel alike (SN).
I don't know enough about the differences between the diesel specs to comment. Hopefully someone will chime in.
I don't know enough about the differences between the diesel specs to comment. Hopefully someone will chime in.
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I don't know why is says CI-4 Plus in the larger font, but then lists CK-4, etc. above in smaller font. I'm more used to seeing the opposite, where the most recent spec is larger print and the others in smaller font. Both of these oils say they meet the Ford F1 spec and are listed on Ford's website.
CI-4 PLUS is always in the lower half of the API donut. It's likely in larger font only so it looks symmetrical with the top half which has a lot more text.
Id guess the first oil was probably only certified to be CK-4 and the second maybe was certified as also being compatible with the other listed grades.
Id guess the first oil was probably only certified to be CK-4 and the second maybe was certified as also being compatible with the other listed grades.
Isn't that better?
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SN rated diesel oils have lower phosphorus (zddp) levels to help protect emissions equipment. I believe CK-4/SN dual rated oils are limited to 800 ppm of phosphorus. The Ford 6.7 powerstrokes were reportedly having problems with excessive wear on the lifters/valvetrain with the reduced phosphorus oil. This lead to the "WSS-M2C171-F1," oil spec being required for Ford Diesel engines. Oil manufacturers will tell you that they have added other additives to control wear, but won't elaborate on the issue much beyond that. The WSS-M2C171-F1 spec is said to require a minimum of 1000 ppm of phosphorus.
https://www.nu-tierbrands.com/site_...take_a_closer_look/did_you_know_ford.pdf
https://www.flsheriffs.org/uploads/docs/January_2017_Updated_CK-4_Position_Statement.pdf
https://www.nu-tierbrands.com/site_...take_a_closer_look/did_you_know_ford.pdf
https://www.flsheriffs.org/uploads/docs/January_2017_Updated_CK-4_Position_Statement.pdf
Originally Posted by BlakeB
SN rated diesel oils have lower phosphorus (zddp) levels to help protect emissions equipment. I believe CK-4/SN dual rated oils are limited to 800 ppm of phosphorus. The Ford 6.7 powerstrokes were reportedly having problems with excessive wear on the lifters/valvetrain with the reduced phosphorus oil. This lead to the "WSS-M2C171-F1," oil spec being required for Ford Diesel engines. Oil manufacturers will tell you that they have added other additives to control wear, but won't elaborate on the issue much beyond that. The WSS-M2C171-F1 spec is said to require a minimum of 1000 ppm of phosphorus.
https://www.nu-tierbrands.com/site_...take_a_closer_look/did_you_know_ford.pdf
https://www.flsheriffs.org/uploads/docs/January_2017_Updated_CK-4_Position_Statement.pdf
That's not true of the -40 oils. Both of these are F1 listed.
SN rated diesel oils have lower phosphorus (zddp) levels to help protect emissions equipment. I believe CK-4/SN dual rated oils are limited to 800 ppm of phosphorus. The Ford 6.7 powerstrokes were reportedly having problems with excessive wear on the lifters/valvetrain with the reduced phosphorus oil. This lead to the "WSS-M2C171-F1," oil spec being required for Ford Diesel engines. Oil manufacturers will tell you that they have added other additives to control wear, but won't elaborate on the issue much beyond that. The WSS-M2C171-F1 spec is said to require a minimum of 1000 ppm of phosphorus.
https://www.nu-tierbrands.com/site_...take_a_closer_look/did_you_know_ford.pdf
https://www.flsheriffs.org/uploads/docs/January_2017_Updated_CK-4_Position_Statement.pdf
That's not true of the -40 oils. Both of these are F1 listed.
Originally Posted by BillyE
Originally Posted by BlakeB
This was several years ago, I don't know where ford stands on the issue now.
No, it's not true about the phosphorus limits in SN dual rated oils.
https://www.raso.name/cars/20-lubrication/18-heavy-duty-engine-oils
Originally Posted by BlakeB
This was several years ago, I don't know where ford stands on the issue now.
No, it's not true about the phosphorus limits in SN dual rated oils.
https://www.raso.name/cars/20-lubrication/18-heavy-duty-engine-oils
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I did some more reading, the 800 ppm limit only applies to ck-4/sn oils in 5w30 and 10w30 weights. The phosphorus limit is still 1200 ppm in 15w40 CK-4/SN . My apologies for the confusion.
What I don't get is why all 15w40 CK-4/SN oils don't claim to meet the Ford spec. Apparently the problem was only with 10w30 ck-4/sn oils all along, the problem wasn't the dual ck-4/sn rating like I've thought it was all along. Is there a licensing cost to be Ford approved?
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/b9b7ff6b#/b9b7ff6b/16
What I don't get is why all 15w40 CK-4/SN oils don't claim to meet the Ford spec. Apparently the problem was only with 10w30 ck-4/sn oils all along, the problem wasn't the dual ck-4/sn rating like I've thought it was all along. Is there a licensing cost to be Ford approved?
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/b9b7ff6b#/b9b7ff6b/16
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Not all CK-4 15w-40 has 1000+ ppm phosphorus. Delo and most Mobil products come to mind.
Now in theory, there should be available a 6.7 valvetrain wear test that Delo and Mobil could use to get certified even though phosphorus isn't at 1000 ppm. I have not seen this, though. I am suspicious that the test got abandoned and F1 is now certified only by chemical composition. The original intent was that the 1000 ppm limit would provisionally get an oil on the list while the performance test was being developed.
Now in theory, there should be available a 6.7 valvetrain wear test that Delo and Mobil could use to get certified even though phosphorus isn't at 1000 ppm. I have not seen this, though. I am suspicious that the test got abandoned and F1 is now certified only by chemical composition. The original intent was that the 1000 ppm limit would provisionally get an oil on the list while the performance test was being developed.
Originally Posted by BillyE
Not all CK-4 15w-40 has 1000+ ppm phosphorus. Delo and most Mobil products come to mind.
+1 ; As I'm told, the matrix blending of Delvac and Delo's 30 and 40 weights means that the 40 weights don't get the high ZDDP so long as the 30 is dual rated with SN (or SN plus.)
Originally Posted by BillyE
Now in theory, there should be available a 6.7 valvetrain wear test that Delo and Mobil could use to get certified even though phosphorus isn't at 1000 ppm. I have not seen this, though. I am suspicious that the test got abandoned and F1 is now certified only by chemical composition. The original intent was that the 1000 ppm limit would provisionally get an oil on the list while the performance test was being developed.
Hopefully there is testing to vet the wear performance of lowered ZDDP HDEO
Not all CK-4 15w-40 has 1000+ ppm phosphorus. Delo and most Mobil products come to mind.
+1 ; As I'm told, the matrix blending of Delvac and Delo's 30 and 40 weights means that the 40 weights don't get the high ZDDP so long as the 30 is dual rated with SN (or SN plus.)
Originally Posted by BillyE
Now in theory, there should be available a 6.7 valvetrain wear test that Delo and Mobil could use to get certified even though phosphorus isn't at 1000 ppm. I have not seen this, though. I am suspicious that the test got abandoned and F1 is now certified only by chemical composition. The original intent was that the 1000 ppm limit would provisionally get an oil on the list while the performance test was being developed.
Hopefully there is testing to vet the wear performance of lowered ZDDP HDEO
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