Any wisdom on KTM 790/890 Cam wear problems?

If the secondary filter is filtering oil that's already gone through the main oil filter, might be a good idea to remove it to get more oil to the head and valve train. That filter to the head probably isn't filtering anything out if it's already been caught in the main filter.
Yeh in KTM's press release they actually added that extra screen as a fix. They claim the problem was worse in '19/'20 bikes bfore adding that screen and widening the finger followers slightly.

There are SOOOOO many theories about what is causing the problem but nothing solid. I wish we could find a definite reason.

Guys are changing to a higher strength oil pump relief spring or something hoping to increase the oil pressure to the head. I don't know if there would be any down sides to that though?
 
Yeh in KTM's press release they actually added that extra screen as a fix. They claim the problem was worse in '19/'20 bikes bfore adding that screen and widening the finger followers slightly.
That seems strange to me that adding a separate filter for the oil just going to the head supposedly made a difference. If the oil has already been filtered by the main oil filter I don't see why it would have to be filtered again. Lack of adequate oil volume is typically what causes undo wear (assuming the materials used are correct in the valve train), not already filtered oil that needs to be filtered again. Do you happen to have a schematic of the oiling system for this engine?
 
That seems strange to me that adding a separate filter for the oil just going to the head supposedly made a difference. If the oil has already been filtered by the main oil filter I don't see why it would have to be filtered again. Lack of adequate oil volume is typically what causes undo wear (assuming the materials used are correct in the valve train), not already filtered oil that needs to be filtered again. Do you happen to have a schematic of the oiling system for this engine?
There are a couple Youtube videos where guys have the head off and show the flow of oil to the cams. Lots of theories. The jets that direct oil at where the followers and lobes meet are slightly offset from th channel that feeds them and that was one theory. I can't find pics to explain that right now though.
 
I recall Subaru having fine-mesh screens in oil feed lines in the heads on some of the EJ series engines (my EJ-255 as one example). It was not uncommon for them to catch 'stuff' FAR too large to get past the full-flow oil filter. It must have been stuff coming from somewhere else, as odd as that seemed, 'cause it seemed 'impossible' for it to get past the FFF.

It's weird how bad materials or bad workmanship have been the root cause, or at a bare minimum the primary cause, of cam or lifter failures for SO MANY engines from multiple makes over the past 30 years. It's almost like no one learns from anyone else's seemingly-the-same mistakes or something.
 
For crap sake, just saw KTM is almost $3 billion in the hole. Get those cams replaced quick boys.

Inflation-adjusted update on a basic rule of business:
If you owe the bank $3 million dollars, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $3 BILLION dollars, the BANK has a problem.
 
I don't disagree, either way, KTM is in a whole pile of poop. Are they "too big to fail"? Regardless, how's warranty work going to be handled expediently or at all (at some point)?
 
There are a couple Youtube videos where guys have the head off and show the flow of oil to the cams. Lots of theories. The jets that direct oil at where the followers and lobes meet are slightly offset from th channel that feeds them and that was one theory. I can't find pics to explain that right now though.
I've seen this one recently that mentions oil jets and how they are cross drilled. Seems quite plausible that there is too much flow restriction if these ports are poorly aligned with the oil jets.

 
My 2023 890 Duke R is with a specialist company about to check CAMs and then replace the main spring that sets oil pressure throughout the engine and in particular oil pressure to the oil jets supplying oil to the CAMs. They worked out that the issue was not a metallurgy failure (they did tests on failed CAMs) -- it was an oil starvation problem.

The jets in this motor are small and are prone to blockage if the pressure is inadequate. The engine is designed for a higher pressure and higher oil flow. I suspect Euro 4/5 for this underrated spring remaining long after they found this issue.

They began experimenting with replacing the OEM hydraulic CAM chain tensioner with the Dirt Tricks unit. However, they ran into some problems and after trying to work it out with Dirt Tricks and not achieving success moved to another fix. The new fix was to use the same springs found in other models with similar engine design, such as the 1290 SDR. This upgrade almost doubled the oil pressure and allowed the OEM hydraulic CAM chain tensioner and the jets to operate within spec. So, with good oil maintenance the engine was properly protected from the failures.

These guys also said it is best to run a semi-synth (Motul 5100 or Motorex semi) oil that resists shearing more than a full-synth. So they said Motul 7100 is not recommended. They also said to change oil at least every 5K kilometres. Sooner if it looks degraded. The semi-synth is affected by heat more than the full-synth.

I am in a hot climate (30-40 degrees Celsius) and the engine gets really hot when moving in traffic and sitting at lights. So during the hot summer I may end up changing oil sooner. Also, they said we need to run 15w50 because of the temperature difference compared to European temperatures.

Ideally I would run a larger oil cooler/radiator but nothing exists. I am going to look at removing my Cat and installing a Cat-delete wrapped with an effective exhaust insulating material to mitigate the intense heat-soak that currently radiates from the Cat into the bike. Then I might flash the ECU to achieve good fuelling that stops the lean AFR and the overheating which that causes.

All things considered I am happy with their solution. They have now worked on quite a few 890s, both Adventure and Duke, and the fix has shown to be very effective. No problems at all. They say that with no other QA issues the engine will last a very long time.
 
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I've seen this one recently that mentions oil jets and how they are cross drilled. Seems quite plausible that there is too much flow restriction if these ports are poorly aligned with the oil jets.



Tried to watch that video, but by 1:46, I was getting ready to kill myself.

This one is way easier to watch.

 
My 2023 890 Duke R is with a specialist company about to check CAMs and then replace the main spring that sets oil pressure throughout the engine and in particular oil pressure to the oil jets supplying oil to the CAMs. They worked out that the issue was not a metallurgy failure (they did tests on failed CAMs) -- it was an oil starvation problem.

The jets in this motor are small and are prone to blockage if the pressure is inadequate. The engine is designed for a higher pressure and higher oil flow. I suspect Euro 4/5 for this underrated spring remaining long after they found this issue.

They began experimenting with replacing the OEM hydraulic CAM chain tensioner with the Dirt Tricks unit. However, they ran into some problems and after trying to work it out with Dirt Tricks and not achieving success moved to another fix. The new fix was to use the same springs found in other models with similar engine design, such as the 1290 SDR. This upgrade almost doubled the oil pressure and allowed the OEM hydraulic CAM chain tensioner and the jets to operate within spec. So, with good oil maintenance the engine was properly protected from the failures.

These guys also said it is best to run a semi-synth (Motul 5100 or Motorex semi) oil that resists shearing more than a full-synth. So they said Motul 7100 is not recommended. They also said to change oil at least every 5K kilometres. Sooner if it looks degraded. The semi-synth is affected by heat more than the full-synth.

I am in a hot climate (30-40 degrees Celsius) and the engine gets really hot when moving in traffic and sitting at lights. So during the hot summer I may end up changing oil sooner. Also, they said we need to run 15w50 because of the temperature difference compared to European temperatures.

Ideally I would run a larger oil cooler/radiator but nothing exists. I am going to look at removing my Cat and installing a Cat-delete wrapped with an effective exhaust insulating material to mitigate the intense heat-soak that currently radiates from the Cat into the bike. Then I might flash the ECU to achieve good fuelling that stops the lean AFR and the overheating which that causes.

All things considered I am happy with their solution. They have now worked on quite a few 890s, both Adventure and Duke, and the fix has shown to be very effective. No problems at all. They say that with no other QA issues the engine will last a very long time.
Do you have before and after oil pressure readings? The spring they are talking about is the relief spring for the oil pump. Sorry to break it to you but increasing the relief spring doesn't increase oil pressure.
Ask me how I know... My 890 is at 41k.
 
Do you have before and after oil pressure readings? The spring they are talking about is the relief spring for the oil pump. Sorry to break it to you but increasing the relief spring doesn't increase oil pressure.
Ask me how I know... My 890 is at 41k.

Not pressure but flow. If the original bypass relief pressure is low, this reduces the oil flow to the rest of the engine, as the relief just dumps the oil into the pan. So say the relief pressure is 60psi, this may in fact be hit quite quickly at high revs. Bump it to 90psi and the oil flow will not be reduced as quickly. This is all speculation on my part though, as I don’t know what the relief psi is on this engine.
 
Not pressure but flow. If the original bypass relief pressure is low, this reduces the oil flow to the rest of the engine, as the relief just dumps the oil into the pan. So say the relief pressure is 60psi, this may in fact be hit quite quickly at high revs. Bump it to 90psi and the oil flow will not be reduced as quickly. This is all speculation on my part though, as I don’t know what the relief psi is on this engine.

From what the video above suggests, the oil pressure is no where near 60psi on a stock engine. Closer to half that.
 
Screenshot_20241208-200235~2.webp

Here's from the factory repair manual. The relief spring isn't the issue as the pump doesn't achieve relief. All the arguments as to why replacing the spring will make a difference or why the spring is allegedly low is based on false assumptions.
The main argument is the low relief pressure is to meet emissions regulations. That's hog wash since the least efficient way to run a pump is to oversize it and bleed off excess flow.
A positive displacement pump will not increase pressure with a higher relief pressure.
There's plenty of other reasons it doesn't work. Don't pay attention to the solutions the Facebook group puts forward.
If the fix was the $1 spring, KTM would include it in the repair. Instead they replace the cam, followers and the head in model years that did not have the additional metal filter installed in the head.
Do you know how small the oil jets are? .5mm in the head and .3mm in the clutch (.020" and .012"). If you have particles that big making it through your filter, you have bigger issues. They're huge compared to what makes it through the filter.
If your shop is telling you to run 15w-50 vs 10w-50 because your location is warmer than Europe, they don't understand how oil works.
Basically what I'm getting at it they are trying to fleece you for money based on the current KTM drama.
 
Here's from the factory repair manual. The relief spring isn't the issue as the pump doesn't achieve relief. All the arguments as to why replacing the spring will make a difference or why the spring is allegedly low is based on false assumptions.
Maybe t;he oil pump hits relief when the oil is cold until it warms up, and that's enough time with inadequate oil supply volume to the heads to cause damage over time. It sounds like it takes some miles on the engine to see the wear issue show up. What is the oil pumps pressure relief setting?

Wear like seen here is caused by two things: 1) Lack of oil supply volume to the right areas and/or 2) Inadequate materials and heat treatment on valve train components to mitigate wear when there is adequate lubrication.

A positive displacement pump will not increase pressure with a higher relief pressure.
It will if the pump is going into pressure relief, then increasing the pressure relief setting will supply more volume before hitting that higher relief setting.
 
From my invoice. I doubt very much that this shop is engaged in fleecing customers. It is very easy to determine if people are engaged in that kind of activity (shops and individuals that do reek of it, you can smell it from far away):
Perform oil pressure test before and after.
Old spring is 2 Bar at idle and progresses to 2.2 Bar
New spring at idle is 3 bar and progresses to 4.5 Bar with RPM
 
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Here's from the factory repair manual. The relief spring isn't the issue as the pump doesn't achieve relief. All the arguments as to why replacing the spring will make a difference or why the spring is allegedly low is based on false assumptions.
The main argument is the low relief pressure is to meet emissions regulations. That's hog wash since the least efficient way to run a pump is to oversize it and bleed off excess flow.
A positive displacement pump will not increase pressure with a higher relief pressure.
There's plenty of other reasons it doesn't work. Don't pay attention to the solutions the Facebook group puts forward.
If the fix was the $1 spring, KTM would include it in the repair. Instead they replace the cam, followers and the head in model years that did not have the additional metal filter installed in the head.
Do you know how small the oil jets are? .5mm in the head and .3mm in the clutch (.020" and .012"). If you have particles that big making it through your filter, you have bigger issues. They're huge compared to what makes it through the filter.
If your shop is telling you to run 15w-50 vs 10w-50 because your location is warmer than Europe, they don't understand how oil works.
Basically what I'm getting at it they are trying to fleece you for money based on the current KTM drama.
One of the great things about including documented evidence is that it can be checked. That is why people who are lying to you are deliberately vague and resist putting anything in writing and avoid responsibility -- liars exhibit a smell that is universal.

Here is the oil listed in the Invoice:
Motorex Formula 4T 15W50

The guy who performed this work also has a KTM 890 Adventure and he, as one would expect, performed the same spring fix on his bike. He speculated that Euro 5 might be enforcing less oil in the emissions, limiting pressure so that emissions are constrained. He said the more oil that flows the more volume finds its way into burnt exhaust, which means higher emissions. My speculation is that this specific engine might burn more oil than allowed under Euro 5 and they solve it with a lower pressure than what the engine is designed for. To me that is a logical speculation. To someone else it might not be logical or reasonable.

I had the front sprocket replaced with one tooth down because the gearing of the 890 Duke R feels too tall for regular street and highway. To me the stock gearing is not a good match for the character of this engine except perhaps when you run it on the track in the high RPM range. My speculation was that it may be tall to achieve Euro 5 efficiencies. We know Euro 5 is making manufacturers of ICE vehicles jump through hoops and do regulatory gymnastics. It is just getting worse.

We know the fuelling on Euro 5 performance bikes is all kinds of F***ed up to the degree that AFR is stretched to buggery and cause engines to run far too lean and hotter than they are designed to. This can also cause all kinds of user control issues. Just take a look at the 1290 SDR and the lack of refinement the Euro 5 "tuning" causes. That bike goes from a rough, unrefined beast to a very controllable refined machine with a good dyno tune and some care in the setup. But this effectively wipes out any Euro 5 contortions.

We know that the EU want to phase out ICE technology due to a disingenuous, unscientific political ideology. They also want to remove heavy manufacturing from Europe (move to China) and are achieving it through a range of policy and legislative frameworks. The same is occurring here in Australia, US, Canada and UK. Coincidence? I think not.

FWIW I will discuss this thread and the challenges to the fix with the guy who worked on my bike. He said he always takes pictures as part of his documentation so will post these up, too. He said the CAMs were perfect on my bike (I asked him to check the CAMs before performing his recommended fix):
Labour to check valve clearances and camshaft lobes. All clearances in spec and all cam lobes are perfect

Bike currently has 9.5K kilometres.
 
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