Any additives other than ZDDP containing phosphorus?

[Jlouisiana]

I don't know much about motor oil, but I'm curious - are there any oil additives other than ZDDP (common or not), which contain phosphorus? Even if they're not anti-wear additives?
Thanks for any help!

 

[MolaKule]

New oil with no Zinc or Phosphorus

https://www.trucknews.com/transportation/chevron-unveils-a-lubricants-game-changer/1003095061/

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[bruce381]

I don't know much about motor oil, but I'm curious - are there any oil additives other than ZDDP (common or not), which contain phosphorus? Even if they're not anti-wear additives?
Thanks for any help!

yes depending on oil type or use from esters to fatty compounds

 

[Jlouisiana]

yes depending on oil type or use from esters to fatty compounds

Do you mind giving some examples of (gasoline engine) oil additives that contain phosphorus (other than ZDDP, of course)?

 

[kschachn]

Do you mind giving some examples of (gasoline engine) oil additives that contain phosphorus (other than ZDDP, of course)?

Can you explain why you're interested?

 

[930.engineering]

Many if not very most gear oils contain phosphorus but no zink.* I don't know a single PCMO with no zink though.



*BMW MTF LT-4 is one of the few exceptions

 

[MolaKule]

I don't know much about motor oil, but I'm curious - are there any oil additives other than ZDDP (common or not), which contain phosphorus? Even if they're not anti-wear additives?
Thanks for any help!

Are you referring to OTC additives, most of which are simply "Wallet-Drainers" and are useless, or are you referring to phosphorus additives in commercial DI packages?

OTC and Third Party Oil Additives

Discussions about Over The Counter and Third Party Oil Additives.

bobistheoilguy.com

What is your educational level and what university courses in chemistry and physics have you taken ?

 

[kschachn]

Many if not very most gear oils contain phosphorus but no zink.* I don't know a single PCMO with no zink though.



*BMW MTF LT-4 is one of the few exceptions

Zink?

 

[Jlouisiana]

Are you referring to OTC additives, most of which are simply "Wallet-Drainers" and are useless, or are you referring to phosphorus additives in commercial DI packages?

OTC and Third Party Oil Additives

Discussions about Over The Counter and Third Party Oil Additives.

bobistheoilguy.com

What is your educational level and what university courses in chemistry and physics have you taken ?

I'm interested in using 31P NMR to look at the thermal breakdown of a few oil additives. ZDDP has already be done, and I'm just curious as to what other common additives contain phosphorus.

 

[MolaKule]

I'm interested in using 31P NMR to look at the thermal breakdown of a few oil additives. ZDDP has already be done, and I'm just curious as to what other common additives contain phosphorus.

So are you doing a Physical Chemistry experiment in anticipation of writing a paper?

Here are some references:

 

[Jlouisiana]

Thanks for the links/papers. Right now, I'm just trying to set up an undergraduate experiment for the fall. I don't have much experience with tribology; a few years ago I helped with some experiments involving 31P NMR of ZDDP (we also looked at the ZDDP content of some common oils using NAA), but that's it.
The current plan is to try and reproduce 31P and 19F NMR results for ZDDP and PTFE, but I also wanted to try and study the thermal breakdown of an additive that hasn't been looked at before.

 

[kschachn]

Interesting, what specifically are you looking for in the NMR specra if you're studying thermal breakdown? I did a similar experiment with polyimide films once upon a time in a different life, that was a hydrolysis reaction and we looked for deshielding of the nitrogen atoms.

 

[Jlouisiana]

Here's what we did a few years ago. There have been several NMR studies that have looked at the thermal breakdown of ZDDP over the years.

 

[MolaKule]

...It was assumed that the Zn-contents of the oils samples were entirely in the form of ZDDPs and that the oils contained no other additives with Zn. The data 442 S. Ferguson et al. / Physics Procedia 66 ( 2015 ) 439 – 444 provided by one manufacturer indicated that this assumption was correct (Tyger, 2013) and the authors of this report know of no common oil additives, other than ZDDPs, that contain Zn...

Not necessarily a valid assumption. There are other zinc chemistry, such as zinc naphthenates, complex zinc diamyldithiocarbamates, sulfurized olefin-zinc dithiocarbamates, and neutral zinc dinonylnaphthalene sulfonates.

As far as the phosphates, there are Multi-Functional's such as the phenol-isopropylated-phosphates and the Borated Phosphates (phosphorilated borates).

With the proper ratio of sulfurized olefin-zinc dithiocarbamate, and the phenol-isopropylated-phosphates, one can make an Anti-oxidant/Anti-Wear chemistry almost identical to ZDDP.

 

[Jlouisiana]

...It was assumed that the Zn-contents of the oils samples were entirely in the form of ZDDPs and that the oils contained no other additives with Zn. The data 442 S. Ferguson et al. / Physics Procedia 66 ( 2015 ) 439 – 444 provided by one manufacturer indicated that this assumption was correct (Tyger, 2013) and the authors of this report know of no common oil additives, other than ZDDPs, that contain Zn...

Not necessarily a valid assumption. There are other zinc chemistry, such as zinc naphthenates, complex zinc diamyldithiocarbamates, sulfurized olefin-zinc dithiocarbamates, and neutral zinc dinonylnaphthalene sulfonates.

As far as the phosphates, there are Multi-Functional's such as the phenol-isopropylated-phosphates and the Borated Phosphates (phosphorilated borates).

With the proper ratio of sulfurized olefin-zinc dithiocarbamate, and the phenol-isopropylated-phosphates, one can make an Anti-oxidant/Anti-Wear chemistry almost identical to ZDDP.

...did not know that. Again - not much experience with tribology (but open to learning!).

 

[Jlouisiana]

...It was assumed that the Zn-contents of the oils samples were entirely in the form of ZDDPs and that the oils contained no other additives with Zn. The data 442 S. Ferguson et al. / Physics Procedia 66 ( 2015 ) 439 – 444 provided by one manufacturer indicated that this assumption was correct (Tyger, 2013) and the authors of this report know of no common oil additives, other than ZDDPs, that contain Zn...

Not necessarily a valid assumption. There are other zinc chemistry, such as zinc naphthenates, complex zinc diamyldithiocarbamates, sulfurized olefin-zinc dithiocarbamates, and neutral zinc dinonylnaphthalene sulfonates.

As far as the phosphates, there are Multi-Functional's such as the phenol-isopropylated-phosphates and the Borated Phosphates (phosphorilated borates).

With the proper ratio of sulfurized olefin-zinc dithiocarbamate, and the phenol-isopropylated-phosphates, one can make an Anti-oxidant/Anti-Wear chemistry almost identical to ZDDP.

Are most of the other phosphorus-based additives (ashless dithiophosphate additives, phosphate esters, etc.) widely available from places like Sigma Aldrich? Do you have any additive that you might suggest taking a look at? The NMR that we have is limited (for example, it can't do 25Mg NMR to study magnesium silicon hydroxide/Tribotex breakdown), which is why I was wanting to focus on phosphorus-based additives.

​

 

[MolaKule]

Are most of the other phosphorus-based additives (ashless dithiophosphate additives, phosphate esters, etc.) widely available from places like Sigma Aldrich? Do you have any additive that you might suggest taking a look at? The NMR that we have is limited (for example, it can't do 25Mg NMR to study magnesium silicon hydroxide/Tribotex breakdown), which is why I was wanting to focus on phosphorus-based additives.

​

You could do a search on SA or Fisher Scientific for the ones I mentioned but I get my single additive components directly from additive suppliers.