Another Q about oil for my Porsche Cayenne Turbo

[Jeffrey Behr]

I really hope the signal-to-noise ratio on this forum doesn't deteriorate due to this, but here goes.

After lots of research here and elsewhere and preparing a spreadsheet comparing various candidates for my upcoming oilchange, I believe Red Line 5W-40 is the ONE oil for me if I have to choose ONE for year-round use. However, I'm now considering using 2 oils during the year--RL 5W-40 for our mild 'winters' in Phoenix (where it rarely even reaches freezing), and RL 10W-40 in the 6-month summers. I drive about 20,000 miles a year, so changing twice a year would be about perfect. (Porsche recommends M1 0W-40, 5W-40, or 5W-50, changed every 20,000 miles, and I'm now early in the 2nd batch of 0W-40 which was installed at c. 11,000 miles.)

I'm tending toward the 10W-40 in summer because it gets REALLY hot here* and this oil has NO VI improvers so ought to have a little better High-Temperature, High-Shear performance.

Also, I've installed (but not yet plumbed**) an OilGuard bypass filter to help keep the oil clean between changes.

Does this make sense?


* as in DOWN to maybe 85dF around 4am during a not-untypical summer nite in June thru August.

** I'm waiting until I receive my extremely expensive shop manual before connecting it--the engine is REALLY complicated.

 

[sprintman]

The 5W40 is thicker at 100C (15.1) than the 10W40 (14.6) but HTHS of the 10W40 is 4.7 compared to 4.6 for the 5W40. Unless you desperately need the additional 0.1 HTHS the 5W40 should do year round. Also the 5W40 has shown some super UOA's (look for Tyrolkids from his turbo engine in the UOA section).

 

[buster]

Jeffrey, I think your making an excellent choice if it's worth anything to you.

However, the 5w-40 RL is extremely shear stable and I'd just buy one oil for the year. No need for the 10W in my opinion. I agree with your thinking but with RL, it's shear stable so you won't have to worry about the spread. Plus, anything is more shear stable then M1 0w-40!

 

[Jelly]

Jeff,

I understand the Phoenix temperature thing...Dad's best friend had his trucking company set up there (Glendale), so I've spent a good deal of time there.

We used Delo 400 15w-40 in these turbo'd diesel trucks that were grossed out running very hard in these well over 100F temperatures...tell that to some people on this site (and many others!) though and they would make you think that the engines would have EXPLODED because of their use of DINO oil!

Anyways, in your situation, I'd personally recommend the 10w-40 as you'd be basically getting a straight-40 weight synthetic oil...even though I do feel 5w-40 can protect very, very well, like I said, I would pick the 10w-40 simply because you don't need the very low temperature properties of the 5w-40, and the 10w-40 will guarantee the protection you require while NOT shearing down, keeping wear rates low, and keeping the engine clean.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi Jeff,
as one Porsche owner to another I strongly recommend Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40. This is especially so with any turbo engine ( "heyjay" another Del 1 user and contributor here and I are involved in trucking ) and especially with any Porsche

There are many user references here and in the Diesel oil areas on the Board to this product

I have five UOA's from my Porsche published here as well - one on Delvac. Four are on Shell's Helix Ultra 15w-50 - Ferrari's oil

Tap in to the Porsche community in Australia or RENNLIST there for more details about these cars

I am amazed that you have installed a bypass filter. The Porsche Engineers in Stuttgart/Zuffenhausen would advise strongly against it I am sure. I do strongly as well!

Regards

[ January 21, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[quadrun1]

Could you expand upon that? What's wrong with installing a bypass filter?

 

[quadrun1]

Also I remember Jeffrey writing that RL 5W-40 is the only RL viscosity to use VIIs, so perhaps using RL 10W-40 in the summer months is a good idea, in order to get away from the VIIs?

Gotta wonder if RL 5W-30 would be good to use to reduce turbo lag. Redline says it does on their website.

I think RL 5W-30 would protect well, since it has a high HT/HS visc of 3.8, which is higher than M1 0W-40 (HT/HS=3.6).

Not sure if 5W-30 is an approved viscosity in a Cayenne Turbo though.

(edit: doesn't GC 0W-30 carry Porsche approval?)

I'm tempted to try RL 5W-30 in my SAAB turbo, which allows 0W-x or 5W-x, where x=30, 40, or 50; preferably ACEA A3.

[ January 21, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: quadrun1 ]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Quadrun1 - in this Country Porsche's attitude is;

"Why the h*** would you want to? The current oil capacity is about 9 litres and the factory recommends 30kkms OCI's. If you are concerned just change the oil sooner"

Other more colourful comments remain closed....!

But it must be said that this engine has an extremely sophisticated lubrication system, a lot of technical capacity and with a lot of "user abuse" in reserve

Many non air cooled Porsche engines have already covered 500k without a rebuild! Many more are between 200k and that figure with zero oil consumption. And not a by-pass filter in sight

In my experience the Porsche factory has always been most conservative and very "positive" about oils and OCI's. Most late model Porsches are very easy on their engine oil
My experience with German Automotive Engineers over many years and having worked for MB on vehicle development, including many visits to Wurth and Sindelfingen, has always confirmed their conservatism. And importantly with an excellent technical comprehension of the motor vehicle and its intended use

I am sure Jeff will make the best decision as he sees it and without my humble input!

Regards

[ January 21, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[heyjay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi,
Quadrun1 - in this Country Porsche's attitude is;

"Why the h*** would you want to? The current oil capacity is about 9 litres and the factory recommends 30kkms OCI's. If you are concerned just change the oil sooner"

Other more colourful comments remain closed....!

But it must be said that this engine has an extremely sophisticated lubrication system, a lot of technical capacity and with a lot of "user abuse" in reserve

Many non air cooled Porsche engines have already covered 500k without a rebuild! Many more are between 200k and that figure with zero oil consumption. And not a by-pass filter in sight

In my experience the Porsche factory has always been most conservative and very "positive" about oils and OCI's. Most late model Porsches are very easy on their engine oil
My experience with German Automotive Engineers over many years and having worked for MB on vehicle development, including many visits to Wurth and Sindelfingen, has always confirmed their conservatism. And importantly with an excellent technical comprehension of the motor vehicle and its intended use

I am sure Jeff will make the best decision as he sees it and without my humble input!

Regards

---

Doug is right-on wrt his comments. I've visited Germany - only once - and just HAD to tour MB. I believe they call it "merc" in Australia but correct me if wrong.

In Europe the auto makers dictate the oil standards, not the lazy oil companies. In North America, API/SAE are in cahoots with each other.

Scary fact: most of the SAE J300 engine oil tests are run on either a Buick 3.8 V6 or on a single-cylinder motor. Like a sophisticated lawnmower motor.

The ACEA A-series specs specify exact motors to run on: MB, VW, Porsche, Peugeot, Citroen, etc. The B-series LD diesel specs call for exact tests on motors made by MB, VW, Peugeot, etc. HD series tests are run on Mack, Cummins, Scania, MAN/MTU, etc.

So companies like VW-Porsche-Audi group dictate VERY precise specs to their clients. In Europe extended oil drains are common. For example, the new VW PD turbodiesel required the development of a new oil: Castrol SLX LongLife II 0W-30. With this oil, 24 month or 50,000km max drains.

Especially Porsche designs an engine and a motor oil as companions to each other: they are designed to complement each other. They have every right to then tell their customer what oil to use. Here in North America we're used to a huge lazy V8 and whatever quart of oil is on sale at Parts Are Us.

Although bypass filters are great for HD diesel trucks to remove all the soot, and certain LD cars and trucks running extended oil drains, something as purposely-engineered and exotic as a Porsche needs caution.

Porsche is very well respected for their attention to detail and their exacting engineering, they do NOT guess or leave things to chance. You pay for this of course, the Cayenne is NOT a cheap car.

Jeffrey, I certainly understand you wanting to get the best life out of this investment, and you sound like a very methodical and caring owner.

Even more so than the average Porsche owner!

See what Porsche recommends, as the last thing I would want to see happen is something that would void your warranty. Have you discussed this with P.O.A.? Your local Porsche dealer??

Please be assured that Mobil 1 0W-40, and ESPECIALLY Mobil 1 15W-50, meet/exceed the exacting European ACEA A3, B3, and B4-02 specs for extreme use and EXTREME extended oil change intervals. Delvac 1 5W-40 is a fine oil, but I can't verify it's on the Approval List.

Jeffrey, like most European car makers, Porsche can demand and does maintain, at its own expense, an Approval List. Please check with them to see if a substitute oil is on the Approval List.

If anything, Mobil 1 15W-50 is far easier and probably cheaper to buy than the 0W-40. It's cold temp ratings are not as good, but unless you exceed what Porsche recommends for the low temp/grade chart, you'll be fine.

Please reference the following URL:

http://www.acea.be

The ACEA specs for Mobil 1 15W-50 are:

"A3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline engines and / or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and / or for year-round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer."

The B3/B5 specs cover LD diesel engines, such as VW, that also require severe extended oil drains and are in severe operating conditions. So please check with Porsche to see what they say about Mobil 1 15W-50.

BTW: Australia also has good engineers. Here in North America, the Muscle Car is back. Pontaic has revived the GTO, a "proper" front engine / rear drive car. It's actually a HOLDEN! Doug, if you don't believe me, go to www.pontiac.com and look up the new GTO.

 

[Losiho]

quote:

---

Originally posted by heyjay:
BTW: Australia also has good engineers. Here in North America, the Muscle Car is back. Pontaic has revived the GTO, a "proper" front engine / rear drive car. It's actually a HOLDEN! Doug, if you don't believe me, go to www.pontiac.com and look up the new GTO.

---

Why would Doug not believe you when Australian motorists and Aussie car mags have been reporting for months that the Holden Monaro would be sold in the USA as the Pontiac GTO ?

 

[heyjay]

Honestly, I didn't even think it would be in the news.

 

[Jeffrey Behr]

Well, I thank all of you very much for your thoughtful observations...and NO 'noise'!

A few thoughts in no particular order:
1. Since P specifies only base-0W and 5W oils, I wouldn't consider using a base-15W-viscosity oil. I think I'm stretching to consider using a 10W oil.

2. I've not yet found the list of P-approved oils.

3. How could an oil filter that removes particles 1/20 as small as the full-flow filter be bad for an engine, assuming it's plumbed correctly (for instance, NOT fed by a line feeding a turbocharger)?

Lots to think about.

Now I wonder where that list of approved oils is...here, Google, here, Google...

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
yes - the Monaro!

My two youngest sons are "muscle car" mad and keen followers of our Holden/Ford V8 Supercar series. One is a Ford freak - the other is a Holden hero - what a problem! At least they talk to each other

They wanted me to buy a Monaro V8 two years ago on first release. As usual I was cautious. Our new update model is now a good car with tweaks to suspension etc. Perhaps next time! They sure look good. But so does Ford's new Falcon GT

The Porsche Approved list will NOT include Delvac 1 5w-40 as this oil has not been tested against ACEA A3/B3. Its secondary SL API rating will allow its use however according to "Approval listed lubricant availability".

According to my Mobil Engineering source Del 1 exceeds both A3/B3 but will not be tested so as to correctly target the commercial market. It has B4/E3,4,5 ACEA approvals of course

Poor Jeff - he probably wishes he had purchased a VW Tourag V10 diesel.....but then VW506.123456? Schedule A,B,C etc. would have ruled

The Cayenne has sold very well in Australia. It was prototype tested here in our Outback. On the unrestricted speed long roads - at 50C! And etc.

Regards

 

[Bugzii]

Jeffrey -

I'm with heyjay and Doug with their recommendations...

1. You should research carefully before installing a bypass filter. It may affect oil pressure and oil operating temp, which were designed to be at certain specifications. Porsche cooling & lubrication systems, in general, are much more robust and efficient than those of ordinary cars. Actually, Porsche engines are usually easier on oil than most engines in day-to-day driving. That's why the biggest market for used "American" Porsches is Germany.

2. Redline 5w-40 should be fine year round. If your Pepper is parked mostly in the garage (overnight), I would simply use M1 15w-50. A fellow P-driver/DE instructor I know uses nothing but 15w-50 year round in his 944S/S2/Turbo S. So check with Porsche and see what they say.

Just curious, how much boost are the turbos running at stock?

'87 944S
'01 1.8T New Beetle

 

[heyjay]

Hello Jeffrey:

I got hold of an Alumni buddy in Deer Valley, Utah. He bought a 911 Turbo new 5 years ago and claims Mobil 1 15W-50 IS on the Approval List.

He runs Mobil 1 15W-50 year round and only changes the oil once a year. He also claims the Porsche-specific oil filters are FAR more efficient than those regular "low bidder" filters you see at the parts store.

Of course, the 911 stays safely inside the garage in winter. What with heavy mountain snow and whiteout conditions near the ski resorts, he has a Chevy Suburban for that sort of driving.

The 911 is his weekend "baby." He is far more fanatical about how he cares for his 911 than you are about your Cayenne. I'm talking about putting the car up on a lift (Of COURSE he has a lift in his garage!) and using a lint-free Terry Towel to wipe off the underside after EVERY drive.

Since Porsche appears to diligently research oils that may be used in their motors, and they also purposely design their oil filters, at the very least the Mobil 1 0W-40 should work well. Ask your Service Manager what Porsche recommends wrt Mobil 1 15W-50.

Porsche cars, especially the Cayenne, are very exotic and expensive. Porsche is well aware that few individuals have the means to afford such precision engineering, and Porsche usually extends a high degree of customer service to these individuals.

Unlike a Chevy or Ford dealer where the attitude is usually one of "take it or shove it."

Given the cost of the Cayenne, I'm sure if you sit down with the dealer manager, or service manager, and carefully explain you want the car to last as long as possible, including the use of Mobil 1 15W-50 for your ambient conditions, they will provide you straight answers

Since Porsche ownership is more of an exclusive club than the average car, many Porsche owners are quite diligent and exacting with how the car is maintained. Porsche is also aware of this and usually tries hard to keep their customers happy and loyal.

Are there any local Porsche clubs? A good source of information is like-minded owners such as yourself. Since Porsche appears to have fierce brand loyalty, I bet a Porsche club will be able to give you straight answers too.

Actually, the only time I've seen a Porsche have motor problems is when the 5th or 6th owner buys it, and pours in the $0.79 / quart Brand X 5W-30 at Parts R Us.

Jerry

 

[Cary]

I will throw in my two cents:

1) I love redline, but why would you go to a non-API approved oil, when Porsche has very carefully specified Mobil 1 0w-40 as factory fill?

2) I would not use the Bypass filter, stick with the stock filters and change them every 5,000 miles if it makes you feel better.

3) Let's not forget that 911 motors have not only been going 200,000+ miles on porsche recommended oil change intervals, but on mostly mineral oil.

4) Don't try to outguess the engineers are Porsche, they have a reason for everything they do.

5) If you are worried about their recommendation, change the Mobil 1 every 5,000-10,000 miles.

Cary

 

[dilberto88]

My 2006 Cayenne Turbo responds well to Mobil 1 05W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck oil. Has Zinc for reduced wear and higher flash point, so it smokes less. I'm gonna try Mobil 1 FS European Formula 0W-40 next fill.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: dilberto88
My 2006 Cayenne Turbo responds well to Mobil 1 05W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck oil. Has Zinc for reduced wear and higher flash point, so it smokes less. I'm gonna try Mobil 1 FS European Formula 0W-40 next fill.

13 years later???