Another Multiair oil thread

[Haakon]

Because they’re always fun So - question is what is it about a Fiat spec oil for Multiair engines that the Multiair system needs?

Best I have heard is it needs a good anti foaming additive pack so there is no cavitation behind the plungers in the Multiair system.

There is a lot of mythology around Selenia oil for these in Europe, but in the US it’s Pennzoil Platinum Euro which I understand is rebadged She’ll Helix Ultra.

Any thoughts on the anti foaming idea?

 

[kschachn]

Interesting, you’re brand new here so why would this be “another” thread and why are they always fun?

 

[Haakon]

Projecting a little from the Alfa forums. MA oil is always going to bring out some strong opinions

 

[kschachn]

Projecting a little from the Alfa forums. MA oil is always going to bring out some strong opinions

I guess if that's your point.

 

[Astro14]

I don’t see what makes multi-air unique.

Oil is used as hydraulic fluid to actuate the valve lift system. Dozens of car makers use oil as hydraulic fluid to actuate various valve train operations.

Why would engine oil under pressure result in foam?

The same oil leaving the pump is going to both bearings and multi air. If it’s foaming in the multiair system, it’s foaming in the bearings and the engine is done for.

Mythology exists to explain things we don’t understand. E.G. A big guy with a hammer creates lightning and thunder, until we understand electric charge and the speed of sound.

Mythology on marque-specific forums is created by those who don’t understand engineering.

Use whatever oil you like as long as it meets specification. Ignore the mythology.

 

[Haakon]

I don’t see what makes multi-air unique.

Oil is used as hydraulic fluid to actuate the valve lift system. Dozens of car makers use oil as hydraulic fluid to actuate various valve train operations.

Why would engine oil under pressure result in foam?

The same oil leaving the pump is going to both bearings and multi air. If it’s foaming in the multiair system, it’s foaming in the bearings and the engine is done for.

Mythology exists to explain things we don’t understand. E.G. A big guy with a hammer creates lightning and thunder, until we understand electric charge and the speed of sound.

Mythology on marque-specific forums is created by those who don’t understand engineering.

Use whatever oil you like as long as it meets specification. Ignore the mythology.

I don’t take much notice of the mythology, but there is a strong “use the factory Selenia oil or the engine will blow up!” thjng in Europe with these engines, and yet no one has been able to say what’s so special about that oil (aside from the marketing tie up between Petronas and FCA…).

Could be argue the pressures inside the Multiair unit are a lot higher than any other “conventional” hydraulic application in other engines, but still unclear what anti foaming would mean here and what constitutes a good foaming resistant oil anyway….

 

[javacontour]

I don’t take much notice of the mythology, but there is a strong “use the factory Selenia oil or the engine will blow up!” thjng in Europe with these engines, and yet no one has been able to say what’s so special about that oil (aside from the marketing tie up between Petronas and FCA…).

Could be argue the pressures inside the Multiair unit are a lot higher than any other “conventional” hydraulic application in other engines, but still unclear what anti foaming would mean here and what constitutes a good foaming resistant oil anyway….

I don't think we even get that oil here in North America, and we've seen the Multiair engines in FCA products (or Stellantis now) for a decade or so.
Carmakers encourage owners to buy oil and/or services from them. However, as long as the oil meets the specifications spelled out by the automaker, you will be fine.

Do you have any evidence that the oil pressures are far greater in these engines, or is it just speculation?

 

[Astro14]

It could be argued that the hammer was forged in the depths of Nidavellir. Which is why the lightning flies off it.

Or, one could do a bit of searching.

https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=auto_pres

Nothing special about the oil pressure, or specification, in a multiair engine. Chrysler uses it, too.

 

[Haakon]

It could be argued that the hammer was forged in the depths of Nidavellir. Which is why the lightning flies off it.

Or, one could do a bit of searching.

https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=auto_pres

Nothing special about the oil pressure, or specification, in a multiair engine. Chrysler uses it, too.

Chrysler don’t use it - Fiat Chrysler does

I don’t mean general engine oil system pressure, I mean inside the pumping elements inside the Multiair brick. Cavitation might occur when the plungers come back out dropping pressure quickly. Dunno.

And yes, I’m aware you have these in the US, and that the US market Fiat 500 and dodge darts with the same 1.4 Multiair I have in my Australian spec Alfa Romeo Giulietta specify a different oil.

Hence the interest in if anyone over there knows what FCA is really needing for oil in these things…

 

[Astro14]

Chrysler don’t use it - Fiat Chrysler does

I don’t mean general engine oil system pressure, I mean inside the pumping elements inside the Multiair brick. Cavitation might occur when the plungers come back out dropping pressure quickly. Dunno.

And yes, I’m aware you have these in the US, and that the US market Fiat 500 and dodge darts with the same 1.4 Multiair I have in my Australian spec Alfa Romeo Giulietta specify a different oil.

Hence the interest in if anyone over there knows what FCA is really needing for oil in these things…

How would electric solenoids in the “pumping elements“ cause cavitation, foaming, or higher pressure?

Wouldn’t the speculative higher pressure reduce foaming?

Cavitation, by the way, is local boiling (change to vapor state) from low pressure.

Even if the pressure was very low, you’re not getting a vapor state change in your engine oil. You’re just not. If there’s air in your oil supply, which would be the foaming to which you refer, then you have a pump or gallery problem, a mechanical problem, that no oil will ever be able to mitigate.

To answer your question: your FCA needs clean oil of recommended specification.

It does not need dwarf-forged unicorn tears to fight off the imagined giants of cavitation, foaming, or extreme pressure. Those are all mythological elements.

The oil in this engine does more than in some engines, about the same as in others. Oil used as hydraulic fluid has been with us for decades. The increase in oil-actuated components means that there are more ways to contaminate the oil, and more ways that contaminated oil can damage components.

So, I would keep clean oil, of proper specification, in your engine.

And enjoy mythology as a pastime - not as an approach to automobile maintenance.

 

[wpod]

Oils have anti foam requirements to meet their spec.

 

[frankbee3]

Astro14, thanks for posting the information from SIU/Chrysler. That was interesting reading.

 

[Haakon]

How would electric solenoids in the “pumping elements“ cause cavitation, foaming, or higher pressure?

Wouldn’t the speculative higher pressure reduce foaming?

Cavitation, by the way, is local boiling (change to vapor state) from low pressure.

Even if the pressure was very low, you’re not getting a vapor state change in your engine oil. You’re just not. If there’s air in your oil supply, which would be the foaming to which you refer, then you have a pump or gallery problem, a mechanical problem, that no oil will ever be able to mitigate.

To answer your question: your FCA needs clean oil of recommended specification.

It does not need dwarf-forged unicorn tears to fight off the imagined giants of cavitation, foaming, or extreme pressure. Those are all mythological elements.

The oil in this engine does more than in some engines, about the same as in others. Oil used as hydraulic fluid has been with us for decades. The increase in oil-actuated components means that there are more ways to contaminate the oil, and more ways that contaminated oil can damage components.

So, I would keep clean oil, of proper specification, in your engine.

And enjoy mythology as a pastime - not as an approach to automobile maintenance.

You’re a testy fellow

Anyway, as I said, I was just wondering what was so special about the Fiat spec for MA engines.

If no one knows that’s fine.

 

[javacontour]

You’re a testy fellow

Anyway, as I said, I was just wondering what was so special about the Fiat spec for MA engines.

If no one knows that’s fine.

Don't confuse dealership puffery with anything really special about the oil specification.
Seems there are a dozen or so oils that meet FCA spec MS-6395.
So again, just because the dealer says they recommend their special oil for best results doesn't mean it's the only oil to do so. It means it's the one they recommend. Conveniently, they will sell you that oil. Funny how that works.
Use any oil that meets the spec. If that spec is not listed in your owner's manual, find the section similar to what was published in the SIUC owner's manual example and find an oil that meets the spec listed.
I know we overthink this here at BITOG, but really, you don't have to buy what the dealer says. But you should use something that meets the specifications as outlined by the carmaker.

 

[Haakon]

It’s the Fiat 9.55535-Z2. I guess MS 6365 is a Nth American variant of that?

Yes, as i said I understand the whole “just use the spec” thing. I just want to know what is special about the specification.

 

[Astro14]

It’s the Fiat 9.55535-Z2. I guess MS 6365 is a Nth American variant of that?

Yes, as i said I understand the whole “just use the spec” thing. I just want to know what is special about the specification.

Nothing about it is special.

Many oils, conventional and synthetic, meet it.

As hard as that may be for you to accept.

 

[Haakon]

Nothing about it is special.

Many oils, conventional and synthetic, meet it.

As hard as that may be for you to accept.

It isn’t hard to accept, just wanted to know the details. Inquiring minds

Sorry, did I say something to annoy you? You’ve come across as oddly aggressive.

 

[Astro14]

It isn’t hard to accept, just wanted to know the details. Inquiring minds

Sorry, did I say something to annoy you? You’ve come across as oddly aggressive.

I found this annoying.

You’re a testy fellow

Anyway, as I said, I was just wondering what was so special about the Fiat spec for MA engines.

If no one knows that’s fine.

Your a priori assumptions were wrong.

about oil.

about me.

 

[Haakon]

I found this annoying.

Your a priori assumptions were wrong.

about oil.

about me.

Ok… Maybe it’s lost in the English to American translation.

 

[RamFan]

[URLunfurl="true"]https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=auto_pres[/URL]

Go Salukis!

OP - The gist of your question is trying to figure out what the FCA (now Stellantis) spec MS13340 (FCA 9.55535.GS1) requires to order for an oil to be stamped as meeting the spec. In short, no one knows. I’ve inquired through several channels and have not been able to get an answer. Stellantis’ lips are sealed as to what parameters an oil is tested against in order to receive the stamp of approval. Use any oil that meets the spec and sleep well at night.

Edit: I missed this, you’re referencing Fiat 9.55535-Z2 which seems to be the equivalent to MS6395. MS6395 is nothing special and has been around for a LONG time. There’s nothing special about MS6395.