My 1984 VW Rabbit GTI had an oil cooler that used engine coolant as well. The oil filter screwed on to this cooler so it sounds like Honda must have adopted something similar.
VW should be flattered as imitation is the sincerest form...
Another little test........
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VW should be flattered as imitation is the sincerest form...
MolaKule,
Did you tap into your lube system to pump this oil into the container or did you use an external pump? In any case a temperature drop would have been realized through this process in my opinion unless all the components in use were preheated.
What would be wrong with measuring the temperature off the container that the engine oil pump already pumps oil into? Yes, it is the oil filter - if you feel the need to insulate it, throw an old sock over it. The thin shell of the filter will certainly be at the same temperature as oil flowing through it just as the bottom of the pan is with its oil, especially when the pan in question is made of aluminum. (high conduction rate)
In any case, you are really saying that there will be a temperature differential between the sump oil and the thin shell of the bottom of the pan - so in the first case you are saying that the bottom of the pan is picking up heat faster than it can be conducted into the oil and in the second case you are saying that the pan is losing heat at a greater rate than the oil can supply. That would mean that the temperature on one side of this piece of tin (or aluminum) would have to be at a different temperature than the other side - a significant temperature drop through a cross-section of less than 1/16" of steel or 1/8" of high-conduction aluminum?
Here is a test you can do to illustrate what I mean - take a pot, (yes, aluminum or steel) fill it with oil, cover and heat on a stove and measure the temperature differential between the oil inside and the shell of the pot - please tell me if it is as high as 50F........this being the difference between what oil-temp. guages are indicating and what your readings here are.
[ September 06, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Tommy ]
Did you tap into your lube system to pump this oil into the container or did you use an external pump? In any case a temperature drop would have been realized through this process in my opinion unless all the components in use were preheated.
What would be wrong with measuring the temperature off the container that the engine oil pump already pumps oil into? Yes, it is the oil filter - if you feel the need to insulate it, throw an old sock over it. The thin shell of the filter will certainly be at the same temperature as oil flowing through it just as the bottom of the pan is with its oil, especially when the pan in question is made of aluminum. (high conduction rate)
Bob, are saying that the pan will be hotter than the sump oil because the pan "acts like a heat sink" or that it will be colder because "it is exposed directly to the air"? You can't have it both ways!
In any case, you are really saying that there will be a temperature differential between the sump oil and the thin shell of the bottom of the pan - so in the first case you are saying that the bottom of the pan is picking up heat faster than it can be conducted into the oil and in the second case you are saying that the pan is losing heat at a greater rate than the oil can supply. That would mean that the temperature on one side of this piece of tin (or aluminum) would have to be at a different temperature than the other side - a significant temperature drop through a cross-section of less than 1/16" of steel or 1/8" of high-conduction aluminum?
Here is a test you can do to illustrate what I mean - take a pot, (yes, aluminum or steel) fill it with oil, cover and heat on a stove and measure the temperature differential between the oil inside and the shell of the pot - please tell me if it is as high as 50F........this being the difference between what oil-temp. guages are indicating and what your readings here are.
[ September 06, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Tommy ]
MolaKule
Staff member
As I stated, the plastic jug was insulated with styrofoam beads so the oil mass would not cool down. In addition, the engine was running, so the oil was continually mixing. The pumping was done by an external pump that had to handled with gloves, and it too was plastic.
As far as the oil pan, conduction from the lower end of the steel block heats the oil pan directly. The coolant in the upper engine is taking away most of the heat from the oil.
As far as the oil pan, conduction from the lower end of the steel block heats the oil pan directly. The coolant in the upper engine is taking away most of the heat from the oil.
Someone here should be able to come up with a thermocouple reader. I have used them a lot but don't work there anymore. You take a short (in this case) section of two connector wire (its special for its range) and connect it to the hand held unit. the other end you strip the two wires and wind them tightly together in a short pigtail. Put the wire down your oil filler hole, wait until the temp readout stabilizes, and voila! You know exactly how hot your oil is. RW
I usually check the temp at the filter or other tubing. I use a Snap-on gun. Oil temp at that point is usually very close to water temp, and since they are both circulating through the engine, provide an average temp. The gun doesn't go high enough to read the turbo. When I check it is usually to verify the in-line guages that get out of calibration. On 6 engines if some are over the guage and others under, you know to change the guage.
I appreciate Bob's tests because they show what a lot of us would like to do but then let a couple hundred people add their refinements. From that we get better understanding from so many disciplines.
I appreciate Bob's tests because they show what a lot of us would like to do but then let a couple hundred people add their refinements. From that we get better understanding from so many disciplines.
MolaKule
Staff member
Widman,
You have a PM!
Well this started out to show nothing more than the sump temp and how oil isn't really as constantly hot as one might think. But to add to all these comments, I have a diagram of a basic oil flow in an engine and as you can see from this, there is going ot be higher temps in some areas but in the sump, there is no oil pressure present. everywhere else, oil is pumped through from the oil pump to the head. The flow of the oil is pumping, but at the head, the oil flows under gravity and drains back to the pan through open wholes. Since the oil is not under pressure, it just loosly falls down and it would seem that this is the start of the cooling down process.
Now also you might note that the temp guage sending units exposed in any vehicle is attached to the block. The sending unit is going to have some heat transfer to the sending unit as it is directly mounted to the block. The main purpose is to give you a trend on your oil temp, and most likely not going to be anywhere near acurate because of the mounting. Below is a basic diagram of where a temp guage might be located in the flow system.
So, in this basic diagram, I'd suspect the oil pump creates some heat with the direct attachment to the block and the oil starts to lubricate the gears in the pump and cooling it down, carried to the filter, it being attached to the block directly with a metal center connection, it too will act like a conductor of heat so temp readings on the outside of a filter case again would not be actual representative of oil temp in the engine and would vary on the thickenss of the metal can just as the oil pan has the same effect.
Again, these are just some observations from what I see.
Now also you might note that the temp guage sending units exposed in any vehicle is attached to the block. The sending unit is going to have some heat transfer to the sending unit as it is directly mounted to the block. The main purpose is to give you a trend on your oil temp, and most likely not going to be anywhere near acurate because of the mounting. Below is a basic diagram of where a temp guage might be located in the flow system.
So, in this basic diagram, I'd suspect the oil pump creates some heat with the direct attachment to the block and the oil starts to lubricate the gears in the pump and cooling it down, carried to the filter, it being attached to the block directly with a metal center connection, it too will act like a conductor of heat so temp readings on the outside of a filter case again would not be actual representative of oil temp in the engine and would vary on the thickenss of the metal can just as the oil pan has the same effect.
Again, these are just some observations from what I see.
Hey all -
I used a Fluke 52 thermometer type K on my Mazda Protege 5 this weekend to measure the oil temperature. Ambiant temp was 95.4 F and the oil temp was 194.6 F. This is after a hard run with AC on and the car sat for a couple of minutes while I got the dip stick out and thermalcouple ran down the tube.
Years ago I ran a oil temp gage on my '68 Datsun Roadster and it ran 185 to 190 F. So the Mazda seems high, but it was a hard run and hot day.
Oh yea - the oil is Havoline 10w-30 for break-in. Then to synthetics.
Phil
PS - great forum Bob!!
I used a Fluke 52 thermometer type K on my Mazda Protege 5 this weekend to measure the oil temperature. Ambiant temp was 95.4 F and the oil temp was 194.6 F. This is after a hard run with AC on and the car sat for a couple of minutes while I got the dip stick out and thermalcouple ran down the tube.
Years ago I ran a oil temp gage on my '68 Datsun Roadster and it ran 185 to 190 F. So the Mazda seems high, but it was a hard run and hot day.
Oh yea - the oil is Havoline 10w-30 for break-in. Then to synthetics.
Phil
PS - great forum Bob!!
Phil,
to the site and thanks for the comments.
I was thinking about doing that but the biggest concern there was, how to ensure you were not measuring against the metal and that the coupler was suspended in just oil? Did you have the engine still running at the time you check this or was the engine off?
I'm having a hard time thinking that the oil would drop 60degs when pulled from the pan through a tube to the bottle. I'm sure it loses some temp, but 60degs?
[ September 09, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
I was thinking about doing that but the biggest concern there was, how to ensure you were not measuring against the metal and that the coupler was suspended in just oil? Did you have the engine still running at the time you check this or was the engine off?
I'm having a hard time thinking that the oil would drop 60degs when pulled from the pan through a tube to the bottle. I'm sure it loses some temp, but 60degs?
[ September 09, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Thanks for the welcome Bob.
Very valid conserns. I tried to get the wire into the oil as fast as possible. No way to know if it contacted any metal. The car was not running. Knowing my luck, the wire would have gotten wrapped around the crank. But hey - I want to put those high compression pistons in....
You are right - it can't drop 60 degrees that fast. I need to change my oil soon and I will get a temp as the oil is draining. It will be a hot process, but we must know and burns heal
Phil
Very valid conserns. I tried to get the wire into the oil as fast as possible. No way to know if it contacted any metal. The car was not running. Knowing my luck, the wire would have gotten wrapped around the crank. But hey - I want to put those high compression pistons in....
You are right - it can't drop 60 degrees that fast. I need to change my oil soon and I will get a temp as the oil is draining. It will be a hot process, but we must know and burns heal
Phil
I have a VDO guage and the temperature sender replaces the drain plug...
I don't see how the oil pan is going to be hotter than the oil. Not only that, but the probe is only at the tip of the sender. That is the only position that reads temperature.
The oil sump temp is never below ~170. And that is only in winter when not driving hard. Always above 180 in summer...
My car has an oil cooler.
I think dickwells' method would give a more accurate temp. (Basically the same thing my guage is doing)
Oh, BTW, my (stock)coolant thermostat is only 80C (176F), almost 20F cooler than most new cars. So I think my OT will be about as cool as they come.
And my car has quite a bit of frontal open area. I had the left and right grilles blocked but I need to find a better way. Now that they are open again, my OT dropped ~5F. So newer cars will also run hotter because most have significantly less open area.
And I believe it will drop that fast when pulled from the pan. If I shut my car off but leave the guage on the OT will drop quite fast. I'd say at least 50F in just a few min. This is just memory from casual observation. I'd have to pay more attention to get a more exact answer.
OK...so that is 5qts of oil bulk trapped inside a hot engine cooling off that fast. Imagine how fast a very small volume will cool once taken from that environment into cold pumping equipment and into the "cold" air.
I don't see how the oil pan is going to be hotter than the oil. Not only that, but the probe is only at the tip of the sender. That is the only position that reads temperature.
The oil sump temp is never below ~170. And that is only in winter when not driving hard. Always above 180 in summer...
My car has an oil cooler.
I think dickwells' method would give a more accurate temp. (Basically the same thing my guage is doing)
Oh, BTW, my (stock)coolant thermostat is only 80C (176F), almost 20F cooler than most new cars. So I think my OT will be about as cool as they come.
And my car has quite a bit of frontal open area. I had the left and right grilles blocked but I need to find a better way. Now that they are open again, my OT dropped ~5F. So newer cars will also run hotter because most have significantly less open area.
And I believe it will drop that fast when pulled from the pan. If I shut my car off but leave the guage on the OT will drop quite fast. I'd say at least 50F in just a few min. This is just memory from casual observation. I'd have to pay more attention to get a more exact answer.
OK...so that is 5qts of oil bulk trapped inside a hot engine cooling off that fast. Imagine how fast a very small volume will cool once taken from that environment into cold pumping equipment and into the "cold" air.
Patman
Staff member
It's sort of like when you take a hot coffee, and then pour it into another cup. Try this a few times and it will cool down significantly.
Or as an extreme case, take that super hot coffee and pour it on the counter. Then feel it, it's going to cool off almost instantly.
Or as an extreme case, take that super hot coffee and pour it on the counter. Then feel it, it's going to cool off almost instantly.
The LT1's reverse cooling system(water goes to the head first, then block) necessitates a cooler thermostat for the same overall temps, the stock thermostat gives the same overall temps as a 195F stat in a conventional app. The 160F stat gives the same overall temps as a 180 stat in a conventional app.
MolaKule
Staff member
VaderSS,
I haven't seen an exploded view of the LT1, and if they reverse flow, do they force the water through the "front" of the head, toward the rear and down through the block?
If that is the case, it would seem to me that the front of the engine would always be cooler than the rear of the engine.
[ September 09, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
I haven't seen an exploded view of the LT1, and if they reverse flow, do they force the water through the "front" of the head, toward the rear and down through the block?
If that is the case, it would seem to me that the front of the engine would always be cooler than the rear of the engine.
[ September 09, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Patman
Staff member
MolaKule, here is a cut and paste from another site that explains the reverse flow setup on the LT1:
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