Another little test........

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BTW, Radio Shack makes an IR Temp detector that is accurate to within +,- 4 degrees F.

After purchasing it back in early July, I ran the Nissan back to the office from RS and measured
the oil pan temp with the engine running and with ouside temp at 98 F. Since the car was stopped amd there was no wind, I assumed the oil temp and the pump temp was in equilibrium

The oil pan read 203 F at 6" away from the oil pan.
 
Terry,
I have been looking for one of those. Nobody at the auto parts stores have heard of them. I have even checked the cooking supply stores, nothing. Where do i get one?
 
I bought the Cat.#: 22-325 (cheaper one) because that's all they had at the time.

It's pretty neat. Times out after about 5 seconds and shuts down to save the battery.

[ September 04, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
I just pulled my oil sample, Schaeffers supreme 7000 15w40, from my hot engine through the dipstick tube. I immediatly shot a temp reading(using my raytec temp gun)

Is this an IR temp gun?

If so, don't believe the temperatures as being absolute. The temp reading on IR guns all depend on the emissivity value of the material that you are shooting. Different metals have different values. In addition, if you shot the oil temp, then it emissivity is quite a bit different than metals.
Each type of metal has a different emissivity value.

The point of this is that it is interesting to note what the temperature is, but unless you know the emissivity value the only thing that you can do is get a estimated value.
 
Most metals have an emissitivity of 0.4 to 0.75, while skin has an emissivity of 1.0.

They probably average the emissivity to about 0.75 and calculate on blackbody radiation using the Stephan-Boltzman equation.

BTW, my oil pan was black, so it should be close to a true blackbody radiator.

[ September 04, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Most metals have an emissitivity of 0.4 to 0.75, while skin has an emissivity of 1.0.

They probably average the emissivity to about 0.75 and calculate on blackbody radiation using the Stephan-Boltzman equation.

BTW, my oil pan was black, so it should be close to a true blackbody radiator.


Without going into a whole discussion on emissivity and how the values are derived, my point was to without slamming Bob, because the data was interesting, show that unless you set your IR gun at the proper emissivity, then the reading that you see is inaccurate. I just don't want anyone to get into believing non-scientificily test like the base oil heat/acid test that Bob did with the test tubes and a propane torch.
 
Kevin,

"I just don't want anyone to get into believing non-scientificily test like the base oil heat/acid test that Bob did with the test tubes and a propane torch. "

How would you have done the test without $100,000 instruments? Bob never affirmed that his experiments were scientific. It was an "ad hoc" experiment. Well done experiments, whether executed with costly or cheaper apparatus, fully documented with the results, can be useful. Look at them, study them, and draw your own conclusions.
 
Temp tape is my name for self adhesive temp monitoring strips we use on just about anything to monitor temperature on a bearing,gearbox,differential,brake calipers, etc.

Try Grainger online, www.truechoice.com,www.pegasusautoracing.com,or any engineering or machine shop supply house locally can get them for you.

BSR is a good source for racers call them at 800 432 2798,there out of Mooresville state of NASCAR.

[ September 04, 2002, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Kevin,

"I just don't want anyone to get into believing non-scientificily test like the base oil heat/acid test that Bob did with the test tubes and a propane torch. "

How would you have done the test without $100,000 instruments? Bob never affirmed that his experiments were scientific. It was an "ad hoc" experiment. Well done experiments, whether executed with costly or cheaper apparatus, fully documented with the results, can be useful. Look at them, study them, and draw your own conclusions.


Molakule:
I don't want to get into a huge debate with you about the heat/acid test where Bob used test tubes and a propane torch. I have already posted my concerns about this test and Bob actually agreed that it may have been flawed due to the reasons that I pointed out on the old board. Just in case you can't find my old posts about it some of my concerns were

1.Inconsistant heating between samples.
2.Inconsistant stir rates.
3. Test tubes were at different points in the flame.

All of the above leads to inconsistant heat rates and inconclusive results at best that should not be posted here. They only serve to confuse others.

You for one, based on your bio and all of the very technical threads posted here should be in agreement with my opinion. I am very surprised that you have taken the stance that you have.

As far as your statement on needing a $100K instrument for Bobs test, get real! I am not stating that what Bob was trying to do was bogus, what I am saying is that he could have done it better by heating them all up at one time as they were partially immersed in 1 qt of high temp oil. Then I believe that the data, while not 100% scientific, would be more conclusive because it was done consistantly between all samples.

I think I could reproduce his test for well under $100.

Lastly, I want to be clear about one thing! I have the utmost respect for Bob!!! He was and is the main reason why I participate on this forum. I believe that he, like you, are very knowledgable individuals that have a lot to offer.

I just wish that some of his backyard tests were more well thought out. I see your name alot here, so you know that I am not the only one with problems with some of the tests being performed. That is why we have the oil analysis sections to deal with oil issues that have their merits based in science and accurate and meaningful testing methods.
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Kevin,

Mola along with many others just appreciate what I offer and don't take it too seriously as gospel and in some cases shows some interesting points, even though they are not scientificly exact by no means. All of which you know I point out and always display how it is done so that people can draw conclusions based on all the facts displayed as you have. No argument, leaves a lot to be desired and it has been hashed over. If memory serves, I thought you suggested you might take a stab at that test. Sure would like to see it and would post it on the site if you let me.

As for the temp thing, well, again, proven I haven't got what it takes to be an engineer, I do things like this to see just what if, not so much to establish scientificly but FYI sort of thing. People need to take it for what it is, and many do.

I bet someone can right a scientific paper on how to stand in front of a door and open it. So, given the technical aspects of opening a door by exerting so much pressure, rotating so many degrees to this direction, bend elbow at so many degree angle, exert so many ft or inch lbs of pressure towards you if hinges are... an so on, but take a simple basic task, display the basic idea and how it came to be and who knows, maybe it brings up a simple point over looked.

I totally agree, the oil analysis is the BEST way to establish what an oil can or will do in engines. That is why we setup that section as I think it alone proves more than any little tests I can put on here.

Being the analitical engineer that you are, I would really like to see any kind of tests you or anyone else can put together and supply. I think we could really get some interesting things going.

Appreciate your comments and observations as always, Thanks.

Bob
 
Thanks Bob for your comments. I too find your tests to be very interesting and like to see them. My original post on this topic was NOT an attempt to flame your test, but was an attempt to try explain why your temperatures were lower than expected. I guess once Mola and I started spouting engineering equations, it digressed.
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I appreciate your and Mola's comments and will in the future not to try to turn your backyard tests into an ASTM standards.

As far as redoing your test. I will see if I can squease it in in between coaching my kids soccer and baseball teams.

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OK, Kevin started me thinking (I know, that's dangerous)
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about the accuracy of the Radio Shack IR thermometers (Part Number 22-325). I needed to know just how accurate they might be. With an oil pump pouring oil into a 1 gallon insulated jug here's what I did:

Vehicle: Nissan 2.4L I4 Engine was left idling after a 35 minute drive from work at 75 mph and 3,200 RPM average. Oil is Mobil 1 SS 10W30. Outside temp is currently 95 F.

I placed a Fisher chemical thermometer (Part #14-986C) range of -10 to +150 C, "Total Immersion" type into the insulated bottle of oil. Engine was running at idle while pumping was going on. Observed thermometer and pointed IR probe into oil at 6" away from oil. Took 7 readings from both instruments and averaged.

Average for IR PRobe: 149.3 F
Average for Chemical Thermometer: 67 C = 152.6 F.

Delta - 3.3 F; RS guarantees +,- 4 F accuracy.

Conclusion: IR probe is accurate to within +,- 1 F of calibrated thermometer.

BTW, I also pointed the IR probe at 6" at the oil pan and the temp showed 171 F. So oil temp is approx. 20 F down from pan temp. Note: OIL color not quite as dark as oil pan.
 
WOW, Thanks for that test Mola, excellent test. When I shot the temp on the oil in was directly into the sample bottle not through it.

Well, I guess I'm like a stopped clock!, gonna be right atleast 2 times aday
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Most late-model Honda engines use engine coolant to cool the oil. The coolant circulates around the base of the oil filter so it's cooling oil that is picked up from the sump. I would think that oil temps in Hondas must be hotter than the coolant.
 
Bob,

"Observed thermometer and pointed IR probe into oil at 6" away from oil."

OK, I did shoot the IR probe directly INTO the bottle at the oil (since the bottle was insulated with styrofoam beads), not "through" the bottle.
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[ September 06, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
Jay,

Or at least as hot as the coolant. Interesting cooling system on Hondas, never heard of that scheme.
 
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