Another 300 letter car

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ300H:
It is by far the easiest V8 engine to work on from that era. ... One look at today's engines and I have trouble finding the spark plugs!

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You have put spark plugs in your 413, right?

You know the exhaust manifold on these big blocks goes over the spark plugs. Depending on how tight things are, you can't even see the plug boots let along the spark plug holes once you get the plugs out. In fact, on my dad's 72 Imperial you literally had to jack the car up and take the front tires off and go through the fender well to get to the spark plugs. It was impossible from under the hood.

I think the exhaust manifolds they put on the 440 Magnum and Super Commando helped a little because they were taller and came up beside the valve covers. Of course then you had the problem of the heat baking the crap out of the valve cover gaskets.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris142:
I don't think in real life that a 327 stood a chance against a 413

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I don't know if I'd go that far. A '61 Vette with a 283/315 and posi 4.11s could do 0-60 in 5.5, and 14.2 in the 1/4. What could the 413 in a 4200+ lbs 300G do? Most of the ones I remember were pegleg masters too.

 

[G-MAN]

The 300F, 300G, and 300H were the fastest 300 letter cars, all capable of 0-60 times in the low to mid 7 second range. (Which is also what my 300M is capable of, too.)

I suspect the fastest 0-60 letter cars were the 300F GT Specials with the 400 HP engine and 4 speed transmission. I've never read any published 0-60 times on these cars but I would think low to mid 6 seconds. The 300H with the 405 HP engine was probably also capable of sub 7 second times.

When you consider the unladen curb weight on these monsters was 4200 lbs these times aren't bad at all. And let's not forget that the 300F GT Special was clocked right at 170 mph at Chrysler's test track.

 

[Russ300H]

G-Man: Back in the "old days" when I only had a bulky 1/2" ratchet wrench some of the plugs were admittedly a pain. I have since gotten with the times and use 3/8" with long handles and flex heads for almost everything. On the cars I work on now, I find them a snap.
The exhaust placement was a consession to engineering, as were most decisions made at Chrysler in those days. Left hand thread lugnuts and tapered axles requiring a puller to remove the rear brake drum are two other prime examples.

427: No way a letter car is a drag racer. The 413 Ramcharger or Super Stock in a Plymouth or Dodge was a low 12 second to high 11 second car. Which was amazing considering the bias tires available at the time.

The 413 in a Chrysler 300 letter car is at best a low 15 second car. Hot Rod magazine did have an huge spread back in '62 where Ray Brock took a plain 300 with the 405 hp engine and 4:56 gears and ran low 12's with it. That car was admittedly really prepped and not representative of whay the average owner would have.

A 300's forte' is driving the car at speeds of 100 and up. No other full or mid size american car in the fifties or sixties could do speeds of 80, 90, 100 and up all day long and have the driver as comfortable or refreshed at the end of the day. Don't forget, this was in the days before radar and speeds like this were not far over (if at all) the speed limits of many states.

300's were the favored cars of many moonshiners. No other car could haul the weight and outrun the revenuers like a 300. In fact, the fellow who the Dukes of Hazzard series was based on was a moonshiner and ran a 300 for many years. TV what it is, the Dukes weren't moonshiners and drove a Charger!

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ300H:
427: No way a letter car is a drag racer. The 413 Ramcharger or Super Stock in a Plymouth or Dodge was a low 12 second to high 11 second car. Which was amazing considering the bias tires available at the time.

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No doubt, put a bigger engine in a equivalent weight car and it's likely to be quicker. Here's an interesting list of 1/4 mile times from magazine tests:

http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm

 

[G-MAN]

Boy, that HP figure for the ZL1 Vette is way off. I've read that those engines were really putting out close to 750 HP. And when you consider that the S/S Baracuda was essentially an all-out drag racer that wasn't suitable for street use, the Vette was the real winner here. It was fully streetable road car that was only 1/10 of a second behind the Hemi in the quarter.

 

[427Z06]

Did you see the footnote?

The ** within the list denotes that these were the factory horsepower ratings; these engines were grossly & highly underrated (for insurance reasons), dyno tests have shown anywhere from 575 to 680 horsepower in stock form.

 

[oilboy123]

I see they had a 68 Biscayne 427 chevy.

The closest thing I ever had to anything on that chart was my old a 68 Impala 2dr fasback. It came stock with the 250 six/powerglide trans & 10 axle. I switched it to a 327/TH400 trans and 12 bolt axle.

It seemed like it scooted ok but I bet it would not have broken 16 seconds in the qtr mile......too much weight, too small an engine and a 3.36 axle. Not the best set up for the drags.

American cars have a good showing in this list of cars.

 

[TheTanSedan]

GM and Ford may have had appeal vis-a-vis styling, but Chrysler was well ahead in drivetrain and suspension at that point.

A Chrysler full size is still easy to drive in todays traffic, something I wouldn't say for a GM or Ford w/o modification.

That cross ram was simply awesome on the highway. 1961 was barely the beginning of the Interstate, and the "big road" was two lanes. Passing power was the key to "flattening out the hills" and keeping to a schedule. A cross-ram 413 "300" simply flew around slower traffic.

http://www.lhmopars.com/MOPAR_Ads/1962_Chrysler_300H_ad.html

http://www.lhmopars.com/MOPAR_Ads/1963Chrysler300JAd.html

And, for even more fun:
http://www.fuselage.de/ply69/roadtest.html

Note that a little ol' 383 is as good or better than a "390-hp" Chevy 427. GM didn't catch up until the late 1960's.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheTanSedan:
And, for even more fun:
http://www.fuselage.de/ply69/roadtest.html

Note that a little ol' 383 is as good or better than a "390-hp" Chevy 427.

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After reading that article, I'm not sure how you came up with that conclusion. Since the Impala had a manual, it's low speed acceleration was hampered by the 3.31s. 3.55s or 3.73s would of been a "more equivalent" comparison for the low speed numbers as demonstrated by the passing speed numbers.

 

[TheTanSedan]

The Chev is running shorter tires, by .68 inch, so 3000 rpm = 66 mph Change the ratio to 3.73 and 72 mph turns into 3,300 rpm. Way too high to run a big block all day.

Conversely, the taller-tired Fury has longer gears and 3000 rpm = 78 mph. 72 mph is 2,800.

Here's another contemporary article placing a 383 PLYMOUTH sedan against a 427 CHEVROLET sedan with an auto.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Articles/68Luxury/page62.jpg

Same story, the 383 gives up nearly 50 cubic inches, but is neck for neck in performance.

In both tests, note passing times and distances on the highway.

The Mopar 440 was the bear: In the Michigan State Police trials of 1969 a DODGE Polara "Police Pursuit", with two officers and a trunk load simulating real life ran a 14.3 second, over 100-mph trap speed.

Same 440 as was in any Chrysler T'NT, Dodge Magnum or Plymouth Super Commando-equipped family sedan or muscle car. 3.23 gears.

That Chev is already at the margin to call it a road car. More gear (numerical), and it's worthless except around town.

Maybe the increase to 454 cid in 1970 made a difference for Chevy.

 

[Earl Filter]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris142:
Was it the beachj boys or jan and dean that did a song about a 413 racing a F.i.Vette?

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The only two songs that are even close that I can think of don't include a 413. Only "409" by the Beach Boys, and Deadman's Curve had a Stingray and an XKE.

As a bit of Trivia, the engine revving up at the beginning of "409" (which was, of course, about a Chevrolet 409) was in fact a 390 in his Ford. Brian Wilson recorded it himself. I don't like telling that part, as I'm a Chevy guy.

Anyone else?

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheTanSedan:
The Chev is running shorter tires, by .68 inch, so 3000 rpm = 66 mph Change the ratio to 3.73 and 72 mph turns into 3,300 rpm. Way too high to run a big block all day.

Conversely, the taller-tired Fury has longer gears and 3000 rpm = 78 mph. 72 mph is 2,800.

Here's another contemporary article placing a 383 PLYMOUTH sedan against a 427 CHEVROLET sedan with an auto.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Articles/68Luxury/page62.jpg

Same story, the 383 gives up nearly 50 cubic inches, but is neck for neck in performance.

In both tests, note passing times and distances on the highway.

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What? You've got to be kidding me.

16.2 vs 17.0 in the 1/4
8.25x14 vs 8.25x14 Tires
3.07 vs 3.23 gears
18.2 vs 15.5 MPH/1000 RPMs
And the passing times/distances was just a lucky match up of speed in gears and the test criteria.

Not to mention the superior brakes and gas milage.

And, by the way, a BBC could run all day on the highway with 3.73s.

 

[eljefino]

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ300H:


300's were the favored cars of many moonshiners. No other car could haul the weight and outrun the revenuers like a 300. In fact, the fellow who the Dukes of Hazzard series was based on was a moonshiner and ran a 300 for many years. TV what it is, the Dukes weren't moonshiners and drove a Charger!

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They were so moonshiners! But on TV they had been previously busted (since retired) and were on probation, which is why they could never leave the county. Roscoe tried to entrap the boys once in a while into leaving county and breaking their probation. Hogg was of course their probation officer.

In the movie that just came out, they were back to running shine.

 

[TheTanSedan]

The thread is about 300 Letter cars, a great performing highway vehicle. So, my comments about the Chev and the Fury are also about highway manners.

Tire size is over 2/3 inch shorter on the Chevy (you're using an "interchange" number which is not quite relevant).
http://www.cokertire.com
http://www.tireguides.com/tip6.html

Tire interchange was to avoid tire cross-section interference. Usually, the "modern" tire size recommended is too short compared to the old.

You ever actually sat behind a big block running 3,300 rpm all day? I have, and don't recommend it. 2,600 rpm is about the right number in all cases (and we used to run 65-68 on those open and nearly truck-less Interstates of the 1960's in the West for reasons of fuel economy [15% improvment on some cars vs 72-75 mph]/engine life/comfort).

Passing times and distances are equal for the Chev and the Fury in both tests. (We should really try to rile the Ferd guys cause that 429 -- the motor design that would have propelled Blue Oval to the top of the heap had the muscle car era lasted -- is a stone, here, even with 2.80 gears. It's an embarrassment).

Sort of like the movie, "Bullit" wherein Bill Hickman, the Charger driver has to constantly keep from overtaking McQueen [not competent behind the wheel], thus the out-of-sequence chase where the Charger has wheel covers in one scene, but not in the [ostensibly] previous scene. 390-Ford, can you say s-l-o-w? Luckily, they pulled MCQueen from behind the wheel.

Here's one recounting:
http://www.hottr6.com/triumph/BULLITT.html

Chrysler always did more with less money. And a 383 would last twice as long as a BB Chev.

We're both car guys, so give the 383 its due: the big block that revved like a small block. I admire plenty of Chevs for lots of reasons.

 

[UncleS2]

I knew there was a line about "...a fuel injected Sting Ray and my 413...", in a song called "Shut Down", found it!

Here's a link:
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/shtdwn.html

 

[VNT]

Stuart Nice Find

Nothing like the Truth Squad to get things correct.

I have a 440+6 in a 69 1/2 RR. Nothing like the sound of a RB engine.

Also nice 300G at the beginning of the thread. I have a 392 Hemi siting at my parents out of a 59 300. One can see the soul of the current Chrysler 300C, in those old 300's something which the current generation cam/cord cars dont have and will never have.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by VNT:
I have a 392 Hemi siting at my parents out of a 59 300.

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No you don't. 1958 was the last year of the Hemi. The 413 wedge was introduced in 59 and came in the 300E.

The only 59 Chrysler that came with a Hemi was the custom built Ghia Imperial Limos. Since it took over six months to make one of these things, some of the 59 models actually started life as 58s but by the time they made it back to the US as completed cars they were registered and sold as 59 models.

 

[VNT]

I am sorry, your right 58 was the last years, me bad

 

[VNT]

Oh, it has 11:1 J@E pistons, Solid lifter cam, Smith Brothers adjustable pushrods, Wiend 2-4bbl intake and huge list of other parts.