What AUG said! ![[Cheers!]](/forums/graemlins/cheers.gif)
And with the screech of a tire, I'm screwed. [any traffic attorneys here?]
- Thread starter Logik
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quote:Thats why if you are guilty, and you plead innocent, and the state proves you guilty, your sentence will usually be much harsher than had you bargained with the prosecuting attorney or just plead out.
Originally posted by Dan4510: but it is the nature of humans to not take responsibility Dan
quote:Agree that it ought to be this way, but prosecutors and law enforcement operate to minimize court time. Even when someone is dead on guilty, many times a barganing down plea-agreement is done. The down-side of this is that any small traffic infraction can turn into a 20 count indictment if you just sneer at a cop. But you are still entitled to being proved guilty. Seems like here there is wiggle room. If this had been a killing my attitude would be different, but in this case I would argue there would be much better ways for law enforcement dollars to be spent. Dan
Originally posted by Tim H.:quote:Thats why if you are guilty, and you plead innocent, and the state proves you guilty, your sentence will usually be much harsher than had you bargained with the prosecuting attorney or just plead out.
Originally posted by Dan4510: but it is the nature of humans to not take responsibility Dan
quote:Has anyone read Logik's original post here? He said he was "not going to fight it". He is wondering about his insurance increasing. In this long thread, only 2 posts alluded anything about insurance, but didnt answer his question. His insurance definately will go up, but since I do not live in Ca., I do not know by how much. Maybe someone from Ca can chime in here and anser his question.
I don't think I should have gotten that severe of a punishment, but I was being an idiot and going for a cheap thrill so I guess I got what I deserved. I'm not going to fight it, but how does this look in regards to my insurance increasing?
quote:Later he said he was going after a plea bargain too, in that case a lawyer is needed. He is going to pay either for lawyer or higher insurance. Dan
Originally posted by MAJA:quote:Has anyone read Logik's original post here? He said he was "not going to fight it". He is wondering about his insurance increasing. In this long thread, only 2 posts alluded anything about insurance, but didnt answer his question. His insurance definately will go up, but since I do not live in Ca., I do not know by how much. Maybe someone from Ca can chime in here and anser his question.
I don't think I should have gotten that severe of a punishment, but I was being an idiot and going for a cheap thrill so I guess I got what I deserved. I'm not going to fight it, but how does this look in regards to my insurance increasing?
quote:I've gotten 3 tickets and my insurance has never gone up--in fact it has gone down as I've gotten older. I've had the same insurance company for 9 years (since I started driving), and I've never gotten into an accident that has been my fault. I guess in Virginia the insurance company has to have a reason to check your driving record, otherwise they don't do it. I haven't given them a reason.
Originally posted by MAJA: His insurance definately will go up
[/QUOTE]Later he said he was going after a plea bargain too, in that case a lawyer is needed. He is going to pay either for lawyer or higher insurance.
Dan [/QB][/QUOTE]
That is the info I gave him earlier......
Yeah, I'd rather get a plea bargain and get all the stuff lowered and pay the guy now then have an additional payment to pay for whilst going through college. Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm glad there are a lot of people on my side on this one. I know I can't really fight it, but if I don't get a good plea bargain I don't think I have another choice.
Again, thanks for all your insight, and keep it coming ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
quote:Why should he "take it like man" when our political leaders cant even answer a yes or no question without wanting to redefine the meaning of "is." Dan [/QUOTE] With that kind of attitude, You actually contribute to those same attitudes that those politicians have. One reason why they do it in the first place. Heck, I might as well start disobeying any law I feel that is not right for me, After all, maybe ther is a few cops and judges that have your 'tude and they will just overlook it too. I know, I know, people with 'tudes like yours always look to blame someone else. heck, lets just sue Acura becasue the car allowed him to spin the tires in the first place....Geez.... [/QB][/QUOTE] Maybe I should have expressed it as: why should he participate in a system that is sick and perpetrate the double standard of law enforcment so plainly seen here. Far too often enforcement is levied upon easy targets. I just moved out of small community where there was a crack dealer openly doing business, called for over a year to get something done about it, nothing happened but every time I pulled out of the community I got stopped for some imaginary traffic infraction... Having a doper two doors down makes life miserable and NOTHING WAS EVER DONE BY LAW ENFOCEMENT AND THEY ADMITTED TO ME THEY KNEW ABOUT IT. Its not as simple as any of you make it out to be. At one level he should take responsibility for what he did. On another, if he cows it only contributes to the arrogance of the system and makes it worse. Dan
Originally posted by Tim H.:
[/QUOTE]
Maybe I should have expressed it as: why should he participate in a system that is sick and perpetrate the double standard of law enforcment so plainly seen here. Far too often enforcement is levied upon easy targets. I just moved out of small community where there was a crack dealer openly doing business, called for over a year to get something done about it, nothing happened but every time I pulled out of the community I got stopped for some imaginary traffic infraction... Having a doper two doors down makes life miserable and NOTHING WAS EVER DONE BY LAW ENFOCEMENT AND THEY ADMITTED TO ME THEY KNEW ABOUT IT.
Its not as simple as any of you make it out to be. At one level he should take responsibility for what he did. On another, if he cows it only contributes to the arrogance of the system and makes it worse.
Dan [/QB][/QUOTE]
My point is 2 wrongs do not make a right. Just because there is a crack dealer in your 'hood, does not mean it is right for you to start making crack. I do not know your situation there, but did you once consider that maybe the cops knew about it and did not do anything about it for a reason? perhads the DTF knew, has it under surveilance, and is trying to make a bust on a bigger thing? or that maybe that 'bigger thing' has threatened that officers life somehow, and his hands are partially tied (don't laugh, as a former officer, I have been threatened and my property vandalised more than once)? As for the "Victim", he broke a law, plain and simple. reguardless if he likes the law or not, he broke it. So he must face judgement. I was telling him my advice (as earlier posted) as I have been on both sides of the fence myself (former cop and traffic violator). There will always be a '10%' rule when it comes to Government. But for you to say that an "everyone else does, why can't I" is a right train of thought, just goes against the grain of actions=responsibility. Perhaps instead of telling that kind of infor to the guy, you should focus your energy (by vote, whistle blowing or wahtever)on getting rid of those politicians you spoke about and the actions of your former townsmen. Fight the fire, don't feed it.
quote:Maybe I should have expressed it as: why should he participate in a system that is sick and perpetrate the double standard of law enforcment so plainly seen here. Far too often enforcement is levied upon easy targets. I just moved out of small community where there was a crack dealer openly doing business, called for over a year to get something done about it, nothing happened but every time I pulled out of the community I got stopped for some imaginary traffic infraction... Having a doper two doors down makes life miserable and NOTHING WAS EVER DONE BY LAW ENFOCEMENT AND THEY ADMITTED TO ME THEY KNEW ABOUT IT. Its not as simple as any of you make it out to be. At one level he should take responsibility for what he did. On another, if he cows it only contributes to the arrogance of the system and makes it worse. Dan [/QUOTE] My point is 2 wrongs do not make a right. Just because there is a crack dealer in your 'hood, does not mean it is right for you to start making crack. I do not know your situation there, but did you once consider that maybe the cops knew about it and did not do anything about it for a reason? perhads the DTF knew, has it under surveilance, and is trying to make a bust on a bigger thing? or that maybe that 'bigger thing' has threatened that officers life somehow, and his hands are partially tied (don't laugh, as a former officer, I have been threatened and my property vandalised more than once)? As for the "Victim", he broke a law, plain and simple. reguardless if he likes the law or not, he broke it. So he must face judgement. I was telling him my advice (as earlier posted) as I have been on both sides of the fence myself (former cop and traffic violator). There will always be a '10%' rule when it comes to Government. But for you to say that an "everyone else does, why can't I" is a right train of thought, just goes against the grain of actions=responsibility. Perhaps instead of telling that kind of infor to the guy, you should focus your energy (by vote, whistle blowing or wahtever)on getting rid of those politicians you spoke about and the actions of your former townsmen. Fight the fire, don't feed it. [/QB][/QUOTE] By thier very nature law enforcment and the courts are arbitrary and capricious and operate to fullfil their own objectives rather than serving the public. I am not saying dont be repsonsible, but to me this was a victimless crime....No property was damaged, no one was hurt even though there might have been a chance of it. He deserves a chance to defend himself to the fullest extent of the law. But I still hold that if we have presidents, senators, and local police chiefs that gleefully avoid consequences, why should we as citizens be held to a higher standard. I for one have never gotten a bj in the oval office from an almost underage intern. I think the quote was "I didnt have sex with that woman." So again, I ask, what is wrong with him fighting the system every step of the way...Its what every unethical policitian, lawyer and, dare I say, law enforcement officer would do when caught with their hand in the cookie jar... Dan
Originally posted by Tim H.:
Alright, I got my notice to appear in court.
Basically, I'm being charged with 23103(b)CVC which is:
quote:I have to appear in court on the 13th of August which is, ironically, Friday the 13th. 1:00PM on that day, my fate is sealed. Here's hoping I get a good plea bargain.
(b) Any person who drives any vehicle in any offstreet parking facility, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12500, in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of reckless driving.
''or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty
of reckless driving.''
So were you close enough to anybody or property to threaten it? If the charge was excess noise, it might be different.
quote:Not to hijack, but I do take exception to this statement. While there are some (after all, we are a small slice of society) that may fit this catagory, most, including myself, maintain the solid objective of serving the public. I have no other "agenda" than this when I report for duty.
Originally posted by Dan4510: By thier very nature law enforcment and the courts are arbitrary and capricious and operate to fullfil their own objectives rather than serving the public. Dan
Shorty,
What would you have done if you had pulled me over?
quote:You need to get ahold of that lawyer asap, that way he has time to 'deal' with the prosecuter, and perhaps come to a deal that is beneficial to you, and prevent you from having to go to court at all.
Originally posted by Logik: Alright, I got my notice to appear in court. Basically, I'm being charged with 23103(b)CVC which is:quote:I have to appear in court on the 13th of August which is, ironically, Friday the 13th. 1:00PM on that day, my fate is sealed. Here's hoping I get a good plea bargain.
(b) Any person who drives any vehicle in any offstreet parking facility, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12500, in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of reckless driving.
I am an attorney, but not in CA. I will only post this last time and you can decide. You can and might get just as good results by going yourself as having no attorney. But you might not. The problem is that you have no idea what is or is not going to happen, what is or is not a "good deal" in your particular situation with your particular judge etc. I have been in a courtroom in another town where there are 60 people in line for pretrials and 4 attorneys at 8:30. The bailiff calls out "attorneys?" and you go to the side of the room with an officer (notice I did not say city attorney or district attorney). The officer says "ok, whaddyawant?" You say, how bout x. If it's not ridiculous, ticket gets marked with the new deal, you're on your way. 5 minutes flat. If you are joe blow non attorney, you get to sit and wait for the judge to show up and go through all (ALL) of the legal niceties, and you get to tell your (invariably long) story to the city attorney (not the officer) eventually (after a lot of other people with long stories), and see what he will do with you, probably about 1pm. No prizes for guesses on who gets a better offer. Here I see people drone on and on at pretrials, guess what, that d.a. is not even the one assigned to your case. You are just wasting your breath because the offer has already been given to him by the d.a. whose file it is.
Now, unless you have been to your particular court before and know what the deal is, I can't stress enough that you will lose very little in spending a consultation fee with an attorney to at least figure out where you stand. You don't have to hire him.
You can ignore this and listen to the people telling you to just pack it in. Or that they can get a better deal than any attorney. See if they will pay your fine or your insurance. Good luck.
So the lawyer pays the fine and insurance if a deal is not made and found guilty? Be easy on the lawyerisims. Don't call people out as "not offering to pay your fines" and such unless you practice the same concepts.
As for my conviction rate it can not be proven online and niether can yours.
Be a little more cautious with your snipes.
Must be one very successful practice to pay the fines and insurance if you don't win the case. I guess you don't get paid either. If I am charged with murder I will retain YOU. I guess if I don't get aquitted you will serve my sentence for me?
I'm all about the attorney for these situations. Of course I'm closer to 40 than 20, and my time is worth a bit more to me.
Here is one example, about three years ago, I'm late for meeting my grandmother for dinner because Soon To Be Ex-Wife is late getting ready. (Another good reason for lawyers, but anyway, LOL) so I'm doing like 85 in a 60 and get tagged. The ticket is a manditory court appearance.
A day off work is worth over $300, the cost of an attorney to take care of the ticket? Attorney's fee $90.
What was the deal?
Pay the fine, 30 days probation, no moving violations in 30 days and it doesn't go on my record.
Total cost, fine and attorney's fee, $165.
Like it or not, lawyers have relationships with the court, so while I may have paid $90 for 5 minutes of an attorney's time, I couldn't have gotten the same results.
FWIW,
TB
quote:And that's why the death penalty is so fairly applied. I've always done pretty well in traffic court without a lawyer. Usually there is an opportunity before the judge comes in for people to plead with the Assistant DA because they usually have more people in court than they can handle. Go to the DA and say you were just a typical teenager not yet with a fully developed brain and that you have learned your lesson about stupid driving habits and that you will respect the community better in the future and you would like to plead to a lessor offense. The cop will have usually indicated whether or not he would be in favor of reduced offense. The DA won't give you legal advice so know beforehand what offense to plead to. Lawyer may charge $500 for same approach to DA.
Originally posted by AUG: In the court room everything is about relationships. Just like in the real world. The relationship between the officer that charged you and the judge or prosecutor goes way further to help your cause than a pit bull lawyer that everyone in the court room despises. Many of the wreckless driving citations I issued (yes, i was one of those "dicks" for several years) were punished according to the attitude of the person charged. If you act and dress like a dork you will get a more severe punishment. If you look, act, and talk like a decent person you will get off light. FWIW, make sure you have a conservative haircut, be clean shaven, wear clothes that one would wear to a funeral, wear nothing with a logo of any kind, speak in proper formal english, get rid of anything that might remind the judge of a fast and furious/ghetto wannabe type of person. I'm not saying you are like that but what ever you do don't give the judge any reason to think otherwise. NO baggy pants, sideways hats, ebonic speech, no jewelry of any kind other than a watch. Don't **** off the judge in any way. The judge is the only guy that can help you. Don't **** him off. Find the officer the day of your court date and admitt your mistake and respectfully ask for HIS help with the judge. A good word from the officer will help you way more that a entire herd of pit bull lawyers.
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