And the true synthetics are....
- Thread starter RTexasF
- Start date
- Status
It depends on what you consider "true synthetic." If you mean an oil that's based soley on Group IV (PAO) and Group V (esters), then the list you've given is just about it. Someone did post on here that Kendall's GT-1 synthetic is PAO based, but the MSDS says otherwise.
As I've posted elsewhere, I think any oil based on Shell's XHVI (a Group III base oil) is a true synthetic because unlike other Group III's, the feedstock for XHVI is not distilled crude, but slack wax. PAO is made by catalytically transforming ethylene gas molecules into oil and XHVI is made from catalytically transforming slack wax molecules into oil. Neither began as oil in the first place.
As I've posted elsewhere, I think any oil based on Shell's XHVI (a Group III base oil) is a true synthetic because unlike other Group III's, the feedstock for XHVI is not distilled crude, but slack wax. PAO is made by catalytically transforming ethylene gas molecules into oil and XHVI is made from catalytically transforming slack wax molecules into oil. Neither began as oil in the first place.
From looking at the data sheet and MSDS it looks like Union76's "Pure Synthetic Motor Oil" is all PAO basestocks. I haven't called or written to verify this.
[ December 02, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
[ December 02, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
You might find some more info here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000651#000033
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000651#000033
MolaKule
Staff member
XHVI,
I would disagree in that only polymerized base oils are true synthetics.
And Chevron chemists would disagree that only Shell's G-3 could be considered synthetics.
Chvron says their ALL-HYDROPROCESSING route is the only real G-III synthetic.
I would disagree in that only polymerized base oils are true synthetics.
And Chevron chemists would disagree that only Shell's G-3 could be considered synthetics.
Chvron says their ALL-HYDROPROCESSING route is the only real G-III synthetic.
It all depends on how you define "synthetic" and "synthesized." I happend to think that if the end result of a catalytic process is oil, and the feestock for that process wasn't oil, then the end result is a "synthesized" oil. I'm not a chemist or engineer, so this is just my novice ideas about what constitutes "synthetic" oil. And based on my research, there are only two base oils that meet the criteria of not having "oil" as their feedstocks: PAO and Shell's XHVI. (Edit: And of course, Group V esters.)
And Chevron can bite me.
[ December 03, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: XHVI ]
If you are talking street motor oils:
All the "big" oil companies do somewhere somehow "make" (blend) TRUE synthetic oils.....
Valvoline (some formulas - I think this applies to all ,even Mobil, because Mobil 1 is a marque)
Shell
Chevron
Exxon/Mobil
Amsoil
Redline
Schaeffer's
NEO
Royal Purple (many are blends)
Torco
OptiMax
But if we count racing oils, there are 100's..........sorry I started
All the "big" oil companies do somewhere somehow "make" (blend) TRUE synthetic oils.....
Valvoline (some formulas - I think this applies to all ,even Mobil, because Mobil 1 is a marque)
Shell
Chevron
Exxon/Mobil
Amsoil
Redline
Schaeffer's
NEO
Royal Purple (many are blends)
Torco
OptiMax
But if we count racing oils, there are 100's..........sorry I started
Here are but a few more easily obtainable:
Conoco has one
Phillips 5/30
Castrol R4 5/40
Pennzoil Euro
Quaker State Euro
BelRay 0/40 - 15/50
PJ-1 Gold Fire 20/50
Maxum 4 15/50
Motul
Synergyn-Group IV-V blend
Like Pablo said,there are many race oils
But before I searched the Motorcycle Shops I would use Amsoil- Synergyn -Mobil MX4T- Royal Purple #41 ect
A true PAO blend is hard to find that has enough PAO to warrant purchase,,Phillips 10/30 PCMO-15/40 the Race oil and the Series 3000 HD oil,Schaeffers 10/30,15/40 are the only two brands I know of. Might be more though ?
[ December 03, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Conoco has one
Phillips 5/30
Castrol R4 5/40
Pennzoil Euro
Quaker State Euro
BelRay 0/40 - 15/50
PJ-1 Gold Fire 20/50
Maxum 4 15/50
Motul
Synergyn-Group IV-V blend
Like Pablo said,there are many race oils
But before I searched the Motorcycle Shops I would use Amsoil- Synergyn -Mobil MX4T- Royal Purple #41 ect
A true PAO blend is hard to find that has enough PAO to warrant purchase,,Phillips 10/30 PCMO-15/40 the Race oil and the Series 3000 HD oil,Schaeffers 10/30,15/40 are the only two brands I know of. Might be more though ?
[ December 03, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
MolaKule
Staff member
This is a repost!
XHVI,
I did define true synthetics, "...only polymerized base oils are true synthetics." This term has been in use since 1951 when Gulf Oil first used the term for the first PAO. Where in the G-III process is anything polymerized?
Just because a material is "catalyzed" doesn't mean it's synthetic.
XHVI,
I did define true synthetics, "...only polymerized base oils are true synthetics." This term has been in use since 1951 when Gulf Oil first used the term for the first PAO. Where in the G-III process is anything polymerized?
Just because a material is "catalyzed" doesn't mean it's synthetic.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. In my book, if something is synthesized, then it's "synthetic." As I said, I'm no chemist. But if ethelyne gas is transformed into oil (PAO), that oil has been synthesized. If slack wax is transformed into oil (Shell's XHVI), that oil has been synthesized. If VGO is catalytically processed and the end result is oil (Chevron's UCBO), catalytic transformation of the non-oil elements may have taken place, but the end result is not truly a "synthetic" because the feedstock was oil in the first place.
MolaKule
Staff member
XHVI,
Again I ask, where in the G-III process does polymerization take place?
Neither Shell nor Chevron (in any papers I have read, see Interesting Articles Section) say anything about polymerization in the G-III process.
Again I ask, where in the G-III process does polymerization take place?
Neither Shell nor Chevron (in any papers I have read, see Interesting Articles Section) say anything about polymerization in the G-III process.
MolaKule
Staff member
XHVI,
"If VGO is catalytically processed and the end result is oil (Chevron's UCBO), catalytic transformation of the non-oil elements may have taken place, but the end result is not truly a "synthetic" because the feedstock was oil in the first place."
So was Shell's G-III and Mobil's PAO ("because the feedstock was oil in the first place"). The point is, it is the chemical processing (polymerization) that determines whether or not an oil is truly synthetic.
By your definition, we should NOT classify PAO, Shell's G-III, or Chevron's G-III, as synthetic because it came from petroleum feedstocks. You fail to convince me.
[ December 03, 2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
"If VGO is catalytically processed and the end result is oil (Chevron's UCBO), catalytic transformation of the non-oil elements may have taken place, but the end result is not truly a "synthetic" because the feedstock was oil in the first place."
So was Shell's G-III and Mobil's PAO ("because the feedstock was oil in the first place"). The point is, it is the chemical processing (polymerization) that determines whether or not an oil is truly synthetic.
By your definition, we should NOT classify PAO, Shell's G-III, or Chevron's G-III, as synthetic because it came from petroleum feedstocks. You fail to convince me.
[ December 03, 2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
No, the point is that I disagree with you that polymerization is what constitutes a "synthetic oil." I don't know how many different ways I can say this. For me, if the end result of a catalytic process which began with a non-oil feedstock is oil, then that oil was synthesized. Period. PAO and Shell's XHVI both fall into this category.
Just because Gulf used "polymerization" as a criterion for synthetic in the 50s, and PAO has generally been accepted as the only "true" synthetic" becuase it meets this criterion, doesn't necessarily mean the criterion is correct.
Confusious say to cruise the motorcycle shops and dealers with eyes openquote:
Originally posted by XHVI:
Where are these oils "easily obtainable"? I've never seen any of them on any shelf in the stores or auto parts houses in my area (South Eastern US).
MolaKule
Staff member
XHVI,
You're attempting to change the accepted (technical literature) definition for your own purposes or criterion, whatever they may be.
"No, the point is that I disagree with you that polymerization is what constitutes a "synthetic oil." I don't know how many different ways I can say this. For me, if the end result of a catalytic process which began with a non-oil feedstock is oil, then that oil was synthesized. Period. PAO and Shell's XHVI both fall into this category."
This is the same thing that Castrol has been attempting to do; change the definition via marketing ploys and flood the market with fake synthetics. This is Marketing over common sense and standard technical definitions.
Again, a catalytic process doesn't necessarily imply a synthetic result.
[ December 03, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
You're attempting to change the accepted (technical literature) definition for your own purposes or criterion, whatever they may be.
"No, the point is that I disagree with you that polymerization is what constitutes a "synthetic oil." I don't know how many different ways I can say this. For me, if the end result of a catalytic process which began with a non-oil feedstock is oil, then that oil was synthesized. Period. PAO and Shell's XHVI both fall into this category."
This is the same thing that Castrol has been attempting to do; change the definition via marketing ploys and flood the market with fake synthetics. This is Marketing over common sense and standard technical definitions.
Again, a catalytic process doesn't necessarily imply a synthetic result.
[ December 03, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
