Amsoil's Synthetic Base Fluids

MolaKule

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Amsoil uses PAO and Polyol (noepentane)esters in their Motor oil formulations. I have a bottle of each from them that I use to show people how oils are formulated. Some of their compressor oils are diester's, but their motor oil formulations are predominately PAO and polyol esters. Mola-Kule
 

MolaKule

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Polyol Esters have the following qualities: 1. High temp Stability 2. Oxidation Stability 3. Good Viscosity Index 4. Low Volatility (Doesn't vaporise easily) 5. Reduced Emissions (Seals rings Better) 6. High Film Strength (Won't Squeeze out) 7. Additive Miscibility (Mixes with additives readily). 8. Highly Polar (Sticks to surfaces). PAO's do not have good miscibility (mixability) with additives, so polyols (mainly TMP) are added to enhance the blending and mixing. Pao's tend to harden seals, whegreas esters will swell them a bit for good sealing. So you can see why PAo's and Esters are good synergistic starting materials for basestocks. BTW, polol esters are much more thermally stable than diesters.
 
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I just read on another site that Amsoil is in the process of announcing that their XL-7500 series will be group III, not PAO anymore. In the June issue of Amsoil Action News is an Article,"Amsoil changes XL-7500 Formula to enhance oils, stay competitive." I guess the article says that the change was in response to the ruling in 99 that Group III base oils are "synthetic" even though they are made from crude oil base components. Since others use Group III base stocks and promote them as full synthetics, Amsoil says that in order to remain cost competitive, they had to follow suit! It only affects their XL series, not their other higher end oils. They are still PAO. Give them an A for honesty at least!
 

MolaKule

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Yeah, but I thought Big Al stated he would never use mineral basestocks in his formulations, EVER! [Mad] What a kick in the pants.
 

MolaKule

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I hope so! I have been using the M1 10W30 High Mileage in some farm machinery and I have noticed cooler temps and more operating time.
 

Patman

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I don't think the Amsoil's XL7500 series are much of a bargain at all. From what I understand they are only $1 a quart cheaper, yet not a true synthetic, and not made to last as long. So financially speaking, you are way better off spending the extra money to get the true synthetic Amsoil, and running the interval longer. Are there really any oil change places that stock the XL7500 stuff anyways? Since I heard that is why Amsoil brought it out in the first place.
 
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Are they going to reduce the price accordingly? If they do then it might be a bargain, but so far, everyone has been pocketing the gains. I know that in the case of Castrol and the others, reducing the price would probably not increase sales, but in Amsoil's case, they are being honest about the formulation, so why not cut the price?
 
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This oil may not be a pure PAO synthetic oil anymore, but in the real world can the average consumer tell the difference in their car? As a class, group III's tend to perform much closer to PAO's at a level well above most dino oils. Here is an interesting link from Chevron's web site: www.chevron.com/prodserv/baseoils/papers.shtml Open the technical article titled, The Synthetic Nature of Group III Base Oils, and look at the last few charts that compare Noack, Oxidation Stability & Cold Cranking Performance of dino oil, group III syn oil and PAO synthetics. Like I said, as a class, they're pretty good. That article may be self-serving for Chevron, but still, you can't help but notice how Group III and Group IV are both on a higher performance level than I or II oils. I think Amsoil's Group III will still be a much better oil than conventional choices.
 
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I read that the Amsoil Xl-7500 will drop 20 cents per quart, ($3.95 retail) starting 1 July 2002. And they are using the NAD (National Advertising Division) ruling in the Mobil Oil Corp/Castrol case and it will be labeled Synthetic, and the others will/are labeled 100% Synthetic. Amsoil has had a couple semi-synthetic oils (PCO)for quite some time and are labeled semi-synthetic. [ June 15, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
 

MolaKule

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Here's my argument and why I don't like the ruling or Amsoil falling into the marketing trap: [Mad] Should the National Advertising Division of the BBB change the definition of "Synthetic? 1. They have no expertise in lubrication chemistry or engine testing. 2. Do any of the people in the NAD or BBB know anything about automotive lubrication whatsoever? 3. The "reclassification" was done by a bunch of bean counters and advertising suits. 4. Mobil should take this to court instead of the NAD where expert witnesses can testify as to the real definition of sythetics. I have a feeling it would not stand in a court of law. Just my feelings and total disgust with the NAD and BB ruling. [Mad]
 
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I'm with MolaKule on this one. I do agree that it is close to Synthetic. I'd agree with a semi-synthetic designation, but it does not quite meet synthetic specs, and so should not be called synthetic. Price it as a semisynthetic and call it one, and I would have no problem with it, but for now, any oil refiner calling a Group III oil a synthetic, has no credibility with me.
 
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No prank. AMSOIL is using the highest quality Group III base oil as the major base for the XL series (7500 mile/6 month) oils in 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 grades. Effective 1 Jul 02, these will all be API certified. These oils meet requirements for the 7500 mile drain, offer clear differentiation from other AMSOIL products (which will continue to be most Group IV (PAO). Good strategic sense for API and ILSAC licensing (fixed formulation which can't be improved without extra hassles), and lower pricing.
 
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Folks Amsoil blinked. So much for the "first in synthetics" now we'll call amsoil 'the 3rd or 4th in highly refined group III". My brother is a dealer and I read his action news while on vacation to confirm the fact that the amsoil mlm machine has joined the vhvi bandwagon. I'm with those of you who really feel Amsoil joins most others with confusing the term "synthetic". Amazing that ALL their marketing was driven by the "synthetic" distinction. This latest development is definitely another disappointment to those of us that used to trust, use, and sell Amsoil. [No no]
 

MolaKule

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I think they started going downhill when they switched from di-esters to the POA/polyol mix following Mobil's lead. In my view, they lost all distinction of being first by following others. I think they also committed the most gross hypocrisy by blasting Castrol for chaning definitions of Group III oils and then moving in behind them. Redline or NEO now seem to be the only leaders in expensive full synth's. Mobil seems to be attempting to improve their competitive lot by developing new PAO's and esters.
 
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When the XL serioes came out it was priced within .25 cents of the full synthetic 25,000 miles stuff. Why would anyone buy it if they knew better, well it was aimed at quick lubes where the buyer didn't know any better. To now reduce it .20 cents a quart is ludicrous when one of the arguments for not being a full synthetic is cost. It should be a drop of at least a buck a quart IMHO
 
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Spector: "To now reduce it $0.20 a quart is ludicrous when one of the arguments for not being a full synthetic is cost. It should be a drop of at least a buck a quart, IMHO." Well, Patrick Bedard said in his landmark article on the PAO vs. Group III issue that Group III is about half as expensive as PAO. [Eek!]
 
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