The Amsoil XL line is certified ( so I heard ) and has produced some very good, if not stellar, UOAs on this board. I may start using this oil to get my "scale of economy" back in balance because it's hard for me psychologically to put more than 5-6k miles on any oil.
Amsoil
- Thread starter rraiderr
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I've been a BITOG member for 7 years now. I've seen Amsoil improve over the years. I have a lot more respect for them now than I used too.
Pablo wrote to Amsoil at one time complaining about TSO and it's lackluster performance. That oil had oxidation issues. This was when Amsoil was using older additive chemistry. (GF-3) Historically, they have not always been the best and I've followed them pretty close over the years.
Oil formulations are cyclical. What is best right now may not be a year from now. Some individuals that work in the field have seen tear downs of Amsoil, and were not impressed. Some of their oils they clailmed looked like a synthetic from the 80's.
What you are seeing now is a tightening race in the syn lube market. Synthetics are going to be the future of auto lubricants.
Toyota is going to require a 0w20 oil for their next hybrid. A 0w20 can only be made from a Group III base oils. Many of the GF-5 oils are going to contain Group's III/IV in them.
You can also tell the competition is heating up with BP/Ashland going after the market leader.
As far as certifications go, it works both ways. It can be a minimum performance level, but also a maximum performance level. Not all specifications are just basic and simple to pass. Some of them are very stringent and in some cases the boutique brands don't meet them.
Putting Amsoil aside, because I think they are in a league by themselves in terms of being a small blender, Torco, Lucas, Royal Purple among others I would not trust all that much.
In some instances you are better off sticking with a major brand that has put it's formulation through the testing. Not in all cases, but some.
Quote:
Action News: You talked about negotiating with your suppliers. Rumor has it you play hardball in the board room.
Al Amatuzio: Well, I don't know about that. I do know that I've built some great relationships with suppliers over the years. Some of them have become good friends, but they all know what to expect from AMSOIL. The company has to keep costs down. We can't just bump up our prices every time one of our suppliers raises our cost on a raw material. Our products have to be affordable so our Dealers can sell them.
Pablo wrote to Amsoil at one time complaining about TSO and it's lackluster performance. That oil had oxidation issues. This was when Amsoil was using older additive chemistry. (GF-3) Historically, they have not always been the best and I've followed them pretty close over the years.
Oil formulations are cyclical. What is best right now may not be a year from now. Some individuals that work in the field have seen tear downs of Amsoil, and were not impressed. Some of their oils they clailmed looked like a synthetic from the 80's.
What you are seeing now is a tightening race in the syn lube market. Synthetics are going to be the future of auto lubricants.
Toyota is going to require a 0w20 oil for their next hybrid. A 0w20 can only be made from a Group III base oils. Many of the GF-5 oils are going to contain Group's III/IV in them.
You can also tell the competition is heating up with BP/Ashland going after the market leader.
As far as certifications go, it works both ways. It can be a minimum performance level, but also a maximum performance level. Not all specifications are just basic and simple to pass. Some of them are very stringent and in some cases the boutique brands don't meet them.
Putting Amsoil aside, because I think they are in a league by themselves in terms of being a small blender, Torco, Lucas, Royal Purple among others I would not trust all that much.
In some instances you are better off sticking with a major brand that has put it's formulation through the testing. Not in all cases, but some.
Quote:
Action News: You talked about negotiating with your suppliers. Rumor has it you play hardball in the board room.
Al Amatuzio: Well, I don't know about that. I do know that I've built some great relationships with suppliers over the years. Some of them have become good friends, but they all know what to expect from AMSOIL. The company has to keep costs down. We can't just bump up our prices every time one of our suppliers raises our cost on a raw material. Our products have to be affordable so our Dealers can sell them.
Originally Posted By: rraiderr
I use their products and have been for years but not exclusively as I use and try other vendors products as well.
I see many people in different forums saying the claims Amosil makes about their products are not true. They say many of their products have not been though industry standards qualification processes and the test results they post are not accurate as they paid for the testing. It could be me but it seems I am seeing a rise of people with this opinion.
On the other hand I see oil Analysis on the forum for Amsoil that look pretty good as well as the analysis I have had done are not to bad.
My question is
Is Amsoil a superior product that can take the abuse for extended intervals, provide superior protection and not sheer out of grade or is it like the doubters say just hype.
And are the test results they post bias or bought?
I am trying to figure out if I should continue to use their products or switch to something more affordable like Rotella. If the quality and added protection is truly there I do not mind paying a bit more but if it is not why waste my hard earned dollars.
I think Amsoil makes a very good product. I actually consider their fluids to be in the top handful that I call the "premium" group( Royal Purple, RedLine, Schaeffers, Amsoil ). Using their products will mean you have a well protected drivetrain. I don't feel their products are the best or anything as really there is no one single best out there. They are just one of a small handful that are the best to choose from IMOA. Results can vary from vehicle to vehicle as we all know so Amsoil may be or may not be the best for a given application. Amsoil is generally a good choice to start with however.
However, with all that said, I will not use their products. I have no use for that company and their smoke and mirrors marketing and what I personally feel are underhanded and untruthful tactics. Chaulk me up as someone who does NOT believe all their claims as I have seen some be proven false( a few years back but still saw it ). I also do not believe ANYTHING they claim about a competitors product because I have seen those proved false as well( more recent - white papers ). I have also seena lot of slight of hand, "creative" wording and imaging, and other questionable tactics used by that company.
Amsoil makes a good product but they need a new marketing approach. They do not have a good reputation with a lot of people( might be the single biggest love them or hate them company, with no fence sitters, I have ever come across )and IMO it is something they have earned with poor ethics. I would also point out that the over aggressive dealers and loyal fans/users across the internet who bombard every thread with Amsoil propoganda do not help either. They are just too over the top. The Amsoil dealers on here like Pablo are a much better example of how they should act. There are some guys on the Dodge sites I visit that are flat out jerks who make it impossible to discuss any oil/fluid except for Amsoil and if you try to they attack you non stop until you leave. That has really hurt Amsoil's image as well because a dealer is affiliated with the company.
Disclaimer. I am not trying to tick off the loyal Amsoil folks. The OP asked a specific question and I am just answering. Great fluids, but not so great company which keeps me from using those fluids, is my personal opinion.
I use their products and have been for years but not exclusively as I use and try other vendors products as well.
I see many people in different forums saying the claims Amosil makes about their products are not true. They say many of their products have not been though industry standards qualification processes and the test results they post are not accurate as they paid for the testing. It could be me but it seems I am seeing a rise of people with this opinion.
On the other hand I see oil Analysis on the forum for Amsoil that look pretty good as well as the analysis I have had done are not to bad.
My question is
Is Amsoil a superior product that can take the abuse for extended intervals, provide superior protection and not sheer out of grade or is it like the doubters say just hype.
And are the test results they post bias or bought?
I am trying to figure out if I should continue to use their products or switch to something more affordable like Rotella. If the quality and added protection is truly there I do not mind paying a bit more but if it is not why waste my hard earned dollars.
I think Amsoil makes a very good product. I actually consider their fluids to be in the top handful that I call the "premium" group( Royal Purple, RedLine, Schaeffers, Amsoil ). Using their products will mean you have a well protected drivetrain. I don't feel their products are the best or anything as really there is no one single best out there. They are just one of a small handful that are the best to choose from IMOA. Results can vary from vehicle to vehicle as we all know so Amsoil may be or may not be the best for a given application. Amsoil is generally a good choice to start with however.
However, with all that said, I will not use their products. I have no use for that company and their smoke and mirrors marketing and what I personally feel are underhanded and untruthful tactics. Chaulk me up as someone who does NOT believe all their claims as I have seen some be proven false( a few years back but still saw it ). I also do not believe ANYTHING they claim about a competitors product because I have seen those proved false as well( more recent - white papers ). I have also seena lot of slight of hand, "creative" wording and imaging, and other questionable tactics used by that company.
Amsoil makes a good product but they need a new marketing approach. They do not have a good reputation with a lot of people( might be the single biggest love them or hate them company, with no fence sitters, I have ever come across )and IMO it is something they have earned with poor ethics. I would also point out that the over aggressive dealers and loyal fans/users across the internet who bombard every thread with Amsoil propoganda do not help either. They are just too over the top. The Amsoil dealers on here like Pablo are a much better example of how they should act. There are some guys on the Dodge sites I visit that are flat out jerks who make it impossible to discuss any oil/fluid except for Amsoil and if you try to they attack you non stop until you leave. That has really hurt Amsoil's image as well because a dealer is affiliated with the company.
Disclaimer. I am not trying to tick off the loyal Amsoil folks. The OP asked a specific question and I am just answering. Great fluids, but not so great company which keeps me from using those fluids, is my personal opinion.
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Amsoil is one of the only few "boutique" oils I use. I'm not saying other small companies are not capable of putting together a good oil. Amsoil's white papers really show they make a well balanced oil. "Balanced" is the key. Not all oils are well balanced. Some only excel in certain areas.
It's funny about the energy conserving oil test methodology. Until GF-5 rolls around the current test method does not cover how the oil will perform as it rolls through the drain interval, but rather only how it initially performs. So to get your cert for "fuel conserving" you don't have to formulate an oil that will be fuel conserving for 3,000 miles, but rather an oil will be formulated that is better than a reference 30 grade for a few hours. It is a case where if I were an oil manufacturer I wouldn't pay for this specific certification either. Looks great as a marketing piece though.
It seems the biggest factor in meeting energy conserving requirements is viscosity, more specifically HT/HS.
For example, Amsoil ASL/ATM used to have a HT/HS of 3.5. It's now down to 3.2. The trend for years has been lower vis./HT/HS.
Same thing with Amsoil 5w40. Used to have a HT/HS of 4.2. Now it's 3.7 much like M1 0w-40. Both M1 and AFL end up around 12 cSt while in service.
There are certainly trade-offs when it comes to oil formulation.
For example, Amsoil ASL/ATM used to have a HT/HS of 3.5. It's now down to 3.2. The trend for years has been lower vis./HT/HS.
Same thing with Amsoil 5w40. Used to have a HT/HS of 4.2. Now it's 3.7 much like M1 0w-40. Both M1 and AFL end up around 12 cSt while in service.
There are certainly trade-offs when it comes to oil formulation.
NHHEMI, I don't follow your statement on the ehtics of Amsoil. I have been around them since 1979 and I think they are one of the most repected companies. They have one of the best websites with so much information, they offer training, extensive literature, have dealer meetings and have never missed a pay check to their dealers. Sure there are some lousy dealers out there but who doesn't have them. I know of bad Chevy, Ford, Mercury, Ski Doo, John Deere etc. dealers. I even have to put up with a local Schaeffer dealer who goes around bad mouthing everyones products using his one arm bandit and egg beaters.
Any salesman/woman (that sells anything) that has to use the tactic of bad mouthing his/her competition is 1) not a salesman, 2) does not know his product, and 3) does not know the competitions product.
I think that sums it up Johnny. That tactic would lose the sale on me, for sure!
Some professionals in the industry do not respect Amsoil. Much to my surprise, many do not trust them to this day. Some shaddy past behavior? I don't know why.
As far as product data sheets go, Schaeffer's gives you almost everything. They list the "good" stuff like results from the Seq IIG test and other ASTM engine sequence tests. That you rarely see!
Btw, Amsoil's TFOUT comparison is useless.
As far as product data sheets go, Schaeffer's gives you almost everything. They list the "good" stuff like results from the Seq IIG test and other ASTM engine sequence tests. That you rarely see!
Btw, Amsoil's TFOUT comparison is useless.
Another top notch product.
Yeah seriously check out their product data sheets. Ballzy.
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9003.pdf
Copper corrosion figures, seq IIIG and TEOST.
I just noticed the TEOST # they give of 23.8 (ASTM 6335) which is good, but for a comparison Mobil 1 is 5.2.
Awhile back OilGuy posted some Mobil 1 data for EP and regular M1 5w30. Sorry I'm changing the subject here but it's clear M1's best attribute is handling high temperatures, which is why it's used by so many in high performance applications. Makes more sense when you consider other data figures.
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9003.pdf
Copper corrosion figures, seq IIIG and TEOST.
I just noticed the TEOST # they give of 23.8 (ASTM 6335) which is good, but for a comparison Mobil 1 is 5.2.
Awhile back OilGuy posted some Mobil 1 data for EP and regular M1 5w30. Sorry I'm changing the subject here but it's clear M1's best attribute is handling high temperatures, which is why it's used by so many in high performance applications. Makes more sense when you consider other data figures.
Originally Posted By: rraiderr
My question is
Is Amsoil a superior product that can take the abuse for extended intervals, provide superior protection and not sheer out of grade or is it like the doubters say just hype.
As far as my experience their motor oils are very good and their gear oils are superior. I have seen their gear oils go 3X the manufacturers severe service recommendation in tow trucks. So I can say that their gear oils are the absolute best I have ever seen.
My question is
Is Amsoil a superior product that can take the abuse for extended intervals, provide superior protection and not sheer out of grade or is it like the doubters say just hype.
As far as my experience their motor oils are very good and their gear oils are superior. I have seen their gear oils go 3X the manufacturers severe service recommendation in tow trucks. So I can say that their gear oils are the absolute best I have ever seen.
Originally Posted By: jerre310
NHHEMI, I don't follow your statement on the ehtics of Amsoil. I have been around them since 1979 and I think they are one of the most repected companies. They have one of the best websites with so much information, they offer training, extensive literature, have dealer meetings and have never missed a pay check to their dealers. Sure there are some lousy dealers out there but who doesn't have them. I know of bad Chevy, Ford, Mercury, Ski Doo, John Deere etc. dealers. I even have to put up with a local Schaeffer dealer who goes around bad mouthing everyones products using his one arm bandit and egg beaters.
I am not sure what you can't follow? I explained my view pretty clearly? I have seen enough from that company to not trust anything they say. Nuff said.
NHHEMI, I don't follow your statement on the ehtics of Amsoil. I have been around them since 1979 and I think they are one of the most repected companies. They have one of the best websites with so much information, they offer training, extensive literature, have dealer meetings and have never missed a pay check to their dealers. Sure there are some lousy dealers out there but who doesn't have them. I know of bad Chevy, Ford, Mercury, Ski Doo, John Deere etc. dealers. I even have to put up with a local Schaeffer dealer who goes around bad mouthing everyones products using his one arm bandit and egg beaters.
I am not sure what you can't follow? I explained my view pretty clearly? I have seen enough from that company to not trust anything they say. Nuff said.
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Thanks for all the replies.
The bashing I was referring to was in other forums not this one.
Based on the responses there seems to be more in favor of Amsoil than against.
The bashing I was referring to was in other forums not this one.
Based on the responses there seems to be more in favor of Amsoil than against.
I do believe their oils are top notch and I'd buy them off a shelf in 2 seconds. The few times I have seen them on a shelf, I've bought them and been satisfied.
I disregard all of their marketing just as I do every other lubricant company (and just about any kind of company, for that matter). I don't trust any of the Amsoil marketing any more than I would Ashland, SOPUS, or ExxonMobil. You can make statistics say anything you want. My advice is to trust only yourself and the information you find here. After plenty of research, use what oil you feel is best.
I disregard all of their marketing just as I do every other lubricant company (and just about any kind of company, for that matter). I don't trust any of the Amsoil marketing any more than I would Ashland, SOPUS, or ExxonMobil. You can make statistics say anything you want. My advice is to trust only yourself and the information you find here. After plenty of research, use what oil you feel is best.
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Good post, greenaccord02. If you don't find anything but marketing in seeing Eddie McKraken jump into the picture and smack people with a dipstick ..or hundreds of gallons of sludge raining down from above ..or an engine passing through a shredder and reforming as an engine on the other side ....or .."90% of engine wear occurs at startup" ..
In terms of being a salesman ..well, you are selling in a competitive market. You state the advantages of your product over another in either price or utility. Amongst products of like features, the salesperson sells service.
When I applied for a job servicing accounts for a supplier to the school bus trade the owner asked me how I would sell his tail pipes. I started to remark on how ours was superior. He stopped me and said, "Suppose I told you that ours are actually inferior to the competition? Suppose I told you that the main reason that school bus operators order new pipes is due to bus drivers backing into dumpsters and that the owners were more concerned in how many pipes I'd leave on consignment or how fast I could get a replacement pipe to them".
A good account rep asks what your problems are and gives you the best way he knows how to cope with them to help you more successful at whatever you're doing. That's the same regardless of what you're selling. Industrial chemicals ..motor oil ..first aid supplies...bottled water.
Amsoil oils aren't going to be sensible to all people. The last thing I want is someone feeling that they wasted their money. If I can offer value over alternatives ..then I can promote it. The oils don't always work ..but the other drive train fluids are very easy to promote. There the service life and economics work on a vastly different scale and the performance levels are stellar.
In terms of being a salesman ..well, you are selling in a competitive market. You state the advantages of your product over another in either price or utility. Amongst products of like features, the salesperson sells service.
When I applied for a job servicing accounts for a supplier to the school bus trade the owner asked me how I would sell his tail pipes. I started to remark on how ours was superior. He stopped me and said, "Suppose I told you that ours are actually inferior to the competition? Suppose I told you that the main reason that school bus operators order new pipes is due to bus drivers backing into dumpsters and that the owners were more concerned in how many pipes I'd leave on consignment or how fast I could get a replacement pipe to them".
A good account rep asks what your problems are and gives you the best way he knows how to cope with them to help you more successful at whatever you're doing. That's the same regardless of what you're selling. Industrial chemicals ..motor oil ..first aid supplies...bottled water.
Amsoil oils aren't going to be sensible to all people. The last thing I want is someone feeling that they wasted their money. If I can offer value over alternatives ..then I can promote it. The oils don't always work ..but the other drive train fluids are very easy to promote. There the service life and economics work on a vastly different scale and the performance levels are stellar.
Originally Posted By: rraiderr
Thanks for all the replies.
The bashing I was referring to was in other forums not this one.
Based on the responses there seems to be more in favor of Amsoil than against.
Some good answers here.
Indeed there is no magic oil. And NO motor oil will cure true mechanical problems. I also second the notion on marketing claims - some may not believe Amsoil's claims, and I have no problem with this at all, but the same goes if someone claims Amsoil just made the numbers up or falsified or dry labbed…..people should show the proof if they claim this. It also is interesting that while many claims by oil companies are now being challenged by "peer" groups (started by competitors, I'm sure), Amsoil has not been called out.
Most negativity Buster refers to comes from so called "pros" who have never actually used the product, or are going by "something somebody said". And then you look at who these pros are, they may know a ton about a certain engine or make, not a lot about lubricants.
Amsoil was received OK on BITOG. Heck Bob invited me, even though this was a Schaefer's board to start. I think it was a challenge and I think to some extent it was to "show up" some of Amsoil's claims. Well Amsoil showed up.
But the best thing I like about Amsoil - again despite some folk's claims - Amsoil does listen. I have written several detailed letters (indeed one about TSO). I wrote to Amsoil about beefing up DEO. I wrote about the old S2000 gear oils, etc. Amsoil came out with new and much better products.
Thanks for all the replies.
The bashing I was referring to was in other forums not this one.
Based on the responses there seems to be more in favor of Amsoil than against.
Some good answers here.
Indeed there is no magic oil. And NO motor oil will cure true mechanical problems. I also second the notion on marketing claims - some may not believe Amsoil's claims, and I have no problem with this at all, but the same goes if someone claims Amsoil just made the numbers up or falsified or dry labbed…..people should show the proof if they claim this. It also is interesting that while many claims by oil companies are now being challenged by "peer" groups (started by competitors, I'm sure), Amsoil has not been called out.
Most negativity Buster refers to comes from so called "pros" who have never actually used the product, or are going by "something somebody said". And then you look at who these pros are, they may know a ton about a certain engine or make, not a lot about lubricants.
Amsoil was received OK on BITOG. Heck Bob invited me, even though this was a Schaefer's board to start. I think it was a challenge and I think to some extent it was to "show up" some of Amsoil's claims. Well Amsoil showed up.
But the best thing I like about Amsoil - again despite some folk's claims - Amsoil does listen. I have written several detailed letters (indeed one about TSO). I wrote to Amsoil about beefing up DEO. I wrote about the old S2000 gear oils, etc. Amsoil came out with new and much better products.
I think what people on BITOG are forgetting too is that we are a small group of people that don't listen to the Marketing departments at these various companies, but the other 99.9% of people out there do and that's how the companies pay their bills, by offering the most attractive product that gets the most Joe-Consumer's interested in it. It's these Joe-Consumers that help them to turn a profit.
It's not fair and its sad that this is what makes all companies run, but it's true.
So I bet you Castrol will sell alot of its Edge product with it's annoying Scottish guy whipping people with the dip-stick and claiming they have 8x better wear protection versus M1 who seems to be the "best" on the shelf in the "Joe-Consumer" minds because they are endorsed by Corvette, Honda, Accura, BMW etc.
It just that BITOG-ers know better and want real information and scientific proof to cut through the marketing junk!
It's not fair and its sad that this is what makes all companies run, but it's true.
So I bet you Castrol will sell alot of its Edge product with it's annoying Scottish guy whipping people with the dip-stick and claiming they have 8x better wear protection versus M1 who seems to be the "best" on the shelf in the "Joe-Consumer" minds because they are endorsed by Corvette, Honda, Accura, BMW etc.
It just that BITOG-ers know better and want real information and scientific proof to cut through the marketing junk!
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