Amsoil vs Valvoline

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I grabbed an Amsoil catalog at a show this weekend. Question 1) Looking through it I noticed that there are comparisons to other oils. My question is, why is it that the only oil that is compared to Valvoline Synthetic is Series 2000 Synthetic 20w-50 Racing Oil. Is it becuse Valvoline can't compare, which I find hard to believe, or did it just not compare at all to the other products. [I dont know] Question 2) What group does Valvoline Synthetic belong to?
 

Patman

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Valvoline Synthetic uses a group 3 base oil, so it's not really technically a synthetic, and there really is no comparison between it and Amsoil, which is a true synthetic (other than it's XL7500 line that is). Valvoline's additive package is pretty weak, while Amsoil's is very good. Long drain intervals are Amsoil's big selling feature, I wouldn't want to chance going long intervals with Valvoline, as I don't believe it would handle it very well.
 
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Well, it is impossible to list all the available oils in a small catalog. And all the comparisons are between the same viscosity oils (except Mobil 1 is 15W-50). My guess would be that Valvoline Racing oil 20W-50 is well known, so logical to use in comparison. The other viscosities aren't as popular.
 

red2rebel

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So...(and correct me if I'm wrong)... Valvoline ( Group III )should have been compared to Amsoil XL7500 ( also Group III). Is Amsoil XL 7500 hydrocracked oil? Is all Group III hydrocracked? ...and it was wrong of Amsoil to compare it to the Series 2000 ( Group IV ? ) which is true synthetic (POA or Ester based?)
 

Patman

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Yes, group 3 means hydrocracked oil. The Amsoil XL7500 series is all now group three, it used to be a group 4 and group 5 oil. A true synthetic uses either the group 4 or group 5 base, or a mix of the two. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of the synthetics use all of one, they mix both of them. Group 4 is PAOs (Polyalfaolefins) while Group 5 is the esters. By nature, esters will swell seals, while PAOs tend to shrink them. So to counter this effect, the oil companies mix these two fluids. Some oils like Redline lean more towards a higher mix of esters though, while others like Mobil 1 have a higher mix of PAOs. Esters are generally regarded as more stable.
 
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Dragboat, I believe the oil that was tested was the 20w-50 Synpower. The Valvoline VR-1 is probably a good, Group II basestock. BTW, the VR-1 outperformed the Synpower on this four ball wear test, with a wear scar of .94 mm. That was for "parameter 4" conditions - 60 kg/150C/1 hr/1800 rpms. This is data from 3-4 years back. It is primarily the additive chemistry and not the basestock that determines how well an oil does on the four ball. The reason is that you are functioning under boundary lube conditions most of the time. The VR-1 stuff is loaded up with zinc/phosphorus.
 

MolaKule

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Which reminds me Dragboat: Have you ever posted a VOA or an UOA for the VR1? It would be interesting to see the level of additives for this Racing Oil.
 
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Amsoil has a nasty habit of changing the oils in the comparisons it prints. It will show one test with the results that make it look good but not publish all test results then switch brands and or weights and show a different test where it came out on top. You will never see Amsoil 0W30 and Mobil 1 0W30 and ALL test results given for both oils. They calim no space etc. etc but fact is you will never see all resutls for a one oil comparison like all marketing they pick and choose what makes them look good
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Patman: Yes, group 3 means hydrocracked oil. The Amsoil XL7500 series is all now group three, it used to be a group 4 and group 5 oil. A true synthetic uses either the group 4 or group 5 base, or a mix of the two. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of the synthetics use all of one, they mix both of them. Group 4 is PAOs (Polyalfaolefins) while Group 5 is the esters. By nature, esters will swell seals, while PAOs tend to shrink them. So to counter this effect, the oil companies mix these two fluids. Some oils like Redline lean more towards a higher mix of esters though, while others like Mobil 1 have a higher mix of PAOs. Esters are generally regarded as more stable.
Well, you are definitely freaking me out Patman!! I use M1 and the other day I had my friend start the car and I noticed a little puff of smoke. I know chevys by desing or tradition almost always smoke a bit when you start them, but this car only has 3600 miles (it had less when I noticed the smoke) My question is; if M1 is gonna srink my seals (thus making the problem even worse), would I be better off running AMSOIL or RedLine? Is AMSOIL ester based (so that it swells the seals)?? You see, this oil choosing thing is harder that doing a girl up the rear end [Wink] From what I have learned here, there isn't a perfect oil. AMSOIL: Good for long intervals and keeps the engine clean, but doesn't have moly in it (which you guys seem to like very much); a bit rpicey too. (BTW, which AMSOIL would this be??...I was told by AMSOIL to run S2 0W 30 and other people told me to run the 10W 30 with the orange label....are these 100% Synth??) Is it ester or PAO based?? Mobil 1: Good for intermediate intervals, readily available and probably the best priced (I can get a five quart jug at Walmart for $17.88. Don't know why there is so much difference in price over the boxes....I hope it is the same oil). BUT, is doesn't have that much moly and I just learned that it will srink my seals. RedLine: Good for horsepower (lots of moly) and intermediate intervals; will swell seals (which is good). Downside is that it is way overpriced, I still need to find somebody in San Antonio who sells it and I heard somewhere that it produces "more ash" than other oils??? I would assume that more ash equals dirty engines??? A little help please [Frown] Thanks a lot, Rick
 
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>>>My question is; if M1 is gonna srink my seals (thus making the problem even worse), would I be better off running AMSOIL or RedLine? Is AMSOIL ester based (so that it swells the seals)?? Mobil 1 isn't gonna shrink your seals. Doesn't mean you might not be better off running AMSOIL. The primary base stock in AMSOIL (other than the XL7500 oils) is PAO, just as in Mobil 1. AMSOIL: Good for long intervals and keeps the engine clean, but doesn't have moly in it (which you guys seem to like very much); a bit rpicey too. (BTW, which AMSOIL would this be??...I was told by AMSOIL to run S2 0W 30 and other people told me to run the 10W 30 with the orange label....are these 100% Synth??) Is it ester or PAO based?? I prefer the S2000 0W-30, and run it in 3 turbos and a Dodge 1 ton van. Far as price, I find it the least expensive in terms of cost per mile. >>>Mobil 1: Good for intermediate intervals, readily available and probably the best priced (I can get a five quart jug at Walmart for $17.88. Don't know why there is so much difference in price over the boxes....I hope it is the same oil). BUT, is doesn't have that much moly and I just learned that it will srink my seals. Doesn't seem to shrink anyone else seals. Excellent oil, and what I would use if I couldn't, or wouldn't, get AMSOIL. [ October 30, 2002, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 

MolaKule

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Lst_Z Modern full synthetics do not shrink or swell seals. The mix of modern additives and base oils have made them neutral to seal swell. You're hearing old wives tales from the early seventies that continue to be propagated in spite of modern chemical advances that do no such thing.
 
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Alrighty then!! M1 won't srink my seals...that's a good thing. I really would like to give AMSOIL a try, but it doesn't have moly (which you people like so much). Can the moly be added to AMSOIL via additives or would this mess up the fourmulation? Thanks, Rick
 

Patman

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Dick and MoleKule are right. Like I said, with the proper mixture of PAOs and esters in the above mentioned synthetics, the seals will not shrink. That is why no synthetic (that I'm aware of) uses all PAOs in it's base oil, they always mix in some esters to counter this effect.
 
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>>>I really would like to give AMSOIL a try, but it doesn't have moly (which you people like so much). Can the moly be added to AMSOIL via additives or would this mess up the fourmulation? Perhaps not all of us are that convinced about moly. Last time I talked to the folks at AMSOIL, they weren't yet convinced that moly would benefit their blends. You can add any additive to any oil. Have no idea what adding any additives to AMSOIL would do to the formulation, but you would no longer have AMSOIL in there if anything should happen.
 

MolaKule

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If you are going to add a Moly additive, use the Schaeffer's #132 at a rate of 120 mL (3 oz.) to 5 quarts of Amsoil 10W30 ATM. If you're going to use Mobile 1 10W30, then use 250 mL to 5 quarts. Have it analyzed at 3k to determine if it meets your wear criteria.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Dick in Falls Church: >>> but you would no longer have AMSOIL in there if anything should happen.
Okay, have to bite. The cynic in me cannot pass it up. Would that actually make any difference as Amsoil has never paid off under its warranty anyway?
 
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[Off Topic!] Dick has some points there but when my Daughter turned 16 I gave her the round of her car showing the oil dipstick, radiator cap to never open hot ect and then sent her looking for the turn signal oil reservoir ;)Had her looking for awhile before I fessed up. I heard this from some others,had to wait 16 years to use it on someone,,,the Son of mine was already privey so it did not work on him. So jelling was he problem with the Quaker State in 1981? I had knowledge there was some problem,just never knew what.
 

MolaKule

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Patman, Like I said, with the proper mixture of PAOs and esters in the above mentioned synthetics, the seals will not shrink. That is why no synthetic (that I'm aware of) uses all PAO in it's base oil, they always mix in some esters to counter this effect. " And if you have a di-ester oil like NEO, they will use "mediating" chemicals to make sure the ster doesn't soften the seals. Spector, In any claim there has to be a definite "cause-and-effect' thread, data to back up claims, etc. Here is an example case (names changed for obvoius reasons): Mr. A is claiming as the "plaintiff" that a particular type of motor oil damaged his new Malibu. Brand B is the defendant, a rep for the oil company. Mr. A is on the stand being questioned by his lawyer, " So, right after run-in, you changed the oil to Brand B, your engine started to run really rough, was that your experience?" "yes!" "And so you took the car to the mechanic who said the cam had worn down?" "Yes!" "And this was the only oil that you ever ran in this car since just after run-in?" "Yes." Thank you Mr. A, that will be all. The defense atty, "Mr. A, did you and your son have an argument the night before you changed the oil." Flustered Mr. A says, "I don't see what in the h...l this has to do with my case against the B oil company." "Just answer my question please." The plaintiff's lawyer jumps up and objects, "Whats the relevance, your honor?" Judge: "Objection overruled. Mr. Defense atty., make your point or move to something that is [relevant]." Defense Atty, "Thank you your honor, that will be demonstrated shortly." "Mr. A, did you or did you not have a heated argument with your 14-year-old son the same evening that you changed your oil?" "Well, wel.,yes We did have an argument, but I changed the oil just like I always do." "And was the mileage proper for changing out the run-in oil?" "Of course, the papers are with my lawyer regarding the maintenance records." "And did you ever add any aftermarket additives to your oil?" "No, absolutely not!" "I'm sure they are, and I am confident that this was the right time to change oil. But that's not really my question; would you describe your son as 'vindictive'?" "Why no, he's a good kid." "Would he do anything to get even with you because you wouldn't let him go skateboarding with the other neigherbohoood kids?" "No, I really don't think he would be stooping to do such a thing." "Did any neighbors ever complain that that things such as lawnmowers, chainsaws, and the like had been damaged when your son was near them?" "I have had one complaint from one neighbor and I paid him for the damage." "I have here 5 police complaints regarding vandalism and malicious damage from your immediate neighbors. All complaints were for engine damage to outdoor power equipment. Your son was seen at or near this equipment before the failures." "So what, they proved anything against my son and the old man across the road is always yelling at him; besides, the claim is not against my son but against the poor oil Mr. B's company makes." "Mr A, I am ready to put onto the witness stand an Expert Witness, who is a Physicist and Tribologist, and will testify that the same sand found in your engine oil is the same sand found in your son's chemistry set. In addition, I am also going to recall your mechanic who stated the cam lobes were fretted, etc, not from oil, but from sand. Do you still want to continue to press for damages or would you like to consult with your attorney at this time?" So, guess what happened next? Did the defense really have a good defense, or were they bluffing. Did the plaintiff drop the case or did he have something else up his sleeve?
 
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When the oil is changed at 3000 miles in a Toyota and no sludge appears but when that engine is run on Amsoil for 15,000 and sludge appears the answer is YES because AMSOIL said I could go 25,000 between changes. Further, even after they (Amsoil) knew the oil could not go beyond 7500 they refused to inform customers using Amsoil to change and not go beyond 7500. This would have injured their image and their maketing hype about 25,000 mile changes.
 
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