Amsoil users..Consider this!

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85
Location
California
API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters. Amsoil Amsoil actually makes some very good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if I could buy them in a store, I would not hesitate to use their XL-7500 synthetic as opposed to Mobil 1. What upsets me about Amsoil is that they didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company. taken from: http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm
 
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1,010
Location
Colorado
I think the difference is: the XL7500 series is API certified, but the AMSOIL Series 2000 is simply "recommended for applications requiring API...".
 
Messages
418
Location
Ohio
well the way amsoil words it is that "they meet or exceed API specs", but most are not API certified (I think that only the XL7500 Series are API cert) But in any case, I dont think its an issue. Amsoil oil provides great wear protection with their formula, I wouldnt worry about the high Phos levels damaging the convertor because it never makes it there UNLESS you have alot of blow-by, (in which your burning excessive oil and probably need a rebuild anyhow)
 
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47,769
Location
Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
First of this canned message is almost like Amsoil is trying to pull a fast one, or even that Amsoil just decided not to get their synthetic oils API licensed when API came out with the totally political 1000 ppm limit on P. Here's a few funny facts: 1) There is nothing magical about the 1000 ppm limit (same can be said for upcoming 800 ppm) limit. This number is a political, arbitrary limit. A good oil, with say 1500 ppm of P in a healthy car will NOT poison the catalytic converter. 2) Amsoil does pretty much stay at around 1000 ppm now anyway. 3) So all of a sudden Amsoil became disgusted with API when they started the P limit? Of course this is just too convenient, Amsoil oils have always exceeded the performance portions of API, without poisoning cats, with evaporation/loss rates much lower than all the licensed oils. This whole thing is too corny - talk with the folks using HDEO oils that have 1600-1800 ppm Phosphorous......are their cats poisoned?
 
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60
Location
RAPID CITY, SD.
I have used Amsoil 5W-30 SYN. in my 1998 CV LX w/PLUS package(bought new)in it since approx 1000 miles new, after using Mobil 1 Syn for the previous 700 miles. This means I dumped the factory crap after 300 miles . I have not had a bit of problem with the engine what so ever. It now has about 79300 miles on it. Infact, it is so quiet that I can hear the fuel injectors clicking, a first I thought it was the lifters, but verified it to be the injectors via using a mechanics hearying ear piece. The cats are still doing fine, I can tell by the smell. When a cat is going bad you get a rotten egg/sulfer smell from exhaust system. I will continue to use AMSOIL till the whole car falls apart. So to all that think AMSOIL is bad/no good, they can just go on believing those myths.. [Smile] [Smile]
 
Messages
180
Location
San Jose CA
quote:
Originally posted by 2003TRD: well the way amsoil words it is that "they meet or exceed API specs", but most are not API certified (I think that only the XL7500 Series are API cert) But in any case, I dont think its an issue. Amsoil oil provides great wear protection with their formula, I wouldnt worry about the high Phos levels damaging the convertor because it never makes it there UNLESS you have alot of blow-by, (in which your burning excessive oil and probably need a rebuild anyhow)
Has any actually ever had a cat in a car in decent mechanical condition due to using a non API oil?
 
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3,023
Location
USA-Michigan
Here is some of Amsoil response to the topic a Long time back...
quote:
API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils. Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum base-stocks may use a simple program called base-stock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum base-stocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, base-stock interchange for Group III and V synthetic base-stocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) base-stock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic base-stock suppliers. (*****more information about Group I through Group V base-stocks is entered after the main article) There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic base-stocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil. Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula. Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas Phosphorous content - .10% maximum (API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only) NOACK volatility - 15% maximum The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil. The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters. AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of 0.10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30, 5W-20, 10W-40, 15W-40 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than 0.10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.
btw - I have used Amsoil since 1977 and never had any coverter problems. None of my engines ever use any oil with Amsoil, so I don't see how that can be a problem. [ May 24, 2004, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]
 
Messages
47,769
Location
Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Slider wrote:
quote:
Has any actually ever had a cat in a car in decent mechanical condition due to using a non API oil?
Nope. No documented cases. The number one killer of cats is time and age. This is actually a good thing. Not that the cat dies, but that it dies of natural causes. Even I was to venture a guess, more catalysts are killed by overrich fuel conditions than by oil control issues. I'm sure a fair number are killed when a engine blows out. Maybe a few are killed when someone starts running leaded fuel, or rather adds nasty concoctions to the fuel. But just how many are killed by a "non API oil" is probably none - but careful with the words - there are still SA and SB oils out there (not that those would have much P) - but words such as: "How many cats are killed, in mechanically sound engines, by a well formulated synthetic oil exceeding API perf requirements, such as Redline or Amsoil?" Would be more to the point of the letter above.
 
Messages
3,704
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Have used Amsoil products for over 10 years (never the XL series) in multiple auto brands etc. Oldest now 165,000 miles, never had an emission issue or cat coverter go bad. Replaced one oxygen sensor a week a ago but this zinc issue appears to be way over stated as to the effect on the cat converters.
 
Messages
548
Location
Texas
The only way a converter going to be "poisoned" by an oil is if the engine is burning a lot of oil. The P isnt going to seperate itself from the oil and get into the combustion chamber and wreak havoc.
 
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9,427
Location
Pensacola & Vero Beach FL
quote:
Originally posted by Jason8691: The only way a converter going to be "poisoned" by an oil is if the engine is burning a lot of oil. The P isnt going to seperate itself from the oil and get into the combustion chamber and wreak havoc.
Exactly. I wonder if Mule and other like thinkers ever stopped to consider the possibility (probability??) that a relatively low P oil with HIGH Noack/evaporation %-age may put far more P into the cat than a High P, LOW Noack/evap oil, like Amsoil??? Mule, tell me how the P in my Amsoil*, which showed zero consumption over entire OCI will make it to my cat to poison it? * Used Amsoil 5w-30 on my last OCI. Presently trying a fill of GC. Of M1, GC, and Ams, the Ams has performed best in my Toyota V-6.
 
Messages
244
Location
Shelby, NC
I know this is off-topic but the catalytic converter talk has me thinking. I thought the cat on my 94 Nissan pickup was going bad (harsh sulfur smell that no other vehicle of mine has ever had). It spent a lot of its life up in the Philadelphia area (bad winter gas) so I thought it was time. Took it to the muffler shop ready to shell out $130 when the owner said "If you can smell it then its working fine". He test drove it with me and said that it was just fine. Now it is the original with 100k on it and it smells. Not oil related (uses NONE) but just want an educated guess on this. I cannot imagine a muffler shop turning away money.
 
Messages
8,937
Location
SC
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk: I wonder if Mule and other like thinkers ever stopped to consider the possibility (probability??) that a relatively low P oil with HIGH Noack/evaporation %-age may put far more P into the cat than a High P, LOW Noack/evap oil, like Amsoil???
If your engine is consuming oil because of Noack issues, then it isn't burning that oil in the combustion chambers. The oil is evaporating in the crankcase. The only reason an engine will burn ANY oil is if that oil is getting by the rings or the valve seals.
 
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5,785
Location
Dixie
The Cat Con finally failed after 185,000 miles in my 12 year old Audi 100 due to heat and vibration. When I had the new one installed, there was no improvement in performance, so I don't think the old one was clogged. I generally change Ox sensors every 90k miles and they appear to be fine as well. I think the extremely low oil consumption with Amsoil is the key here. FWIW, Amsoil has reduced the P level in their mainline 5w-30/ASL and 10w-30/ATM formulations. Both have approx 1000 ppm of P and 1250 ppm of zinc. The Series 2000, 0w-30 continues to have somewhat higher ZDDP levels, since it's often used for racing applications. Tooslick www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics
 
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2,768
Location
Tn
API symbols have become about as relevant as UL approvals on electrical stuff. The foreign shops just counterfiet the symbols on a junk product. Pretty dumb to lower zddp just so junk oil that volitizes badly can continue to be used.
 
Messages
9,427
Location
Pensacola & Vero Beach FL
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk: I wonder if Mule and other like thinkers ever stopped to consider the possibility (probability??) that a relatively low P oil with HIGH Noack/evaporation %-age may put far more P into the cat than a High P, LOW Noack/evap oil, like Amsoil???
If your engine is consuming oil because of Noack issues, then it isn't burning that oil in the combustion chambers. The oil is evaporating in the crankcase. The only reason an engine will burn ANY oil is if that oil is getting by the rings or the valve seals.

But where does it go once it evaporates in your crankcase??? Through your PCV/CCB, into your induction system, directly to the combustion chambers, and then to. . .the cats. Assuming you have a relatively modern car that's emissions legal, where else would oil vapor from the crankcase go?
 
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