Amsoil Universal ATF in GM FWD transmission?
- Thread starter cousincletus
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I think undummy has the real grip on it here. If OEM was so smart, I would think that Chrysler DC wouldn't have 7176a-e without any major design changes over most of the evolutions..nor would +4 ever have been formulated.
So, a pinch here ..a dash there for the OEM's ..and finally ..after decades ...going to a synthetic or para-synthetic basestock ..and then calling it the cat's meow? Who hit them on the head and woke them up??
..but, by all means, do as you think best for your ride. Although Amsoil products can work for just about anybody ...everybody surely isn't right for Amsoil.
Enhance your calms
..and be well
So, a pinch here ..a dash there for the OEM's ..and finally ..after decades ...going to a synthetic or para-synthetic basestock ..and then calling it the cat's meow? Who hit them on the head and woke them up??
..but, by all means, do as you think best for your ride. Although Amsoil products can work for just about anybody ...everybody surely isn't right for Amsoil.
Enhance your calms
..and be well
I own a fleet of 8 GM taxis, currently 5 Montanas 01-03 and 3 Vibes 03-04(spec'd for T-IV). I have racked up about 3,000,000km on Amsoil ATF since switching about 3 years ago. Prior to that I would take the cars in to the dealer for a flush every 50,000km where they would install "GM approved" fluids. Back then I was happy to get 200,000km out of a trans and would do several replacements per year. Now the transmissions last the life of the car, normally 600-650,000km. I haven't had a single trans failure or even a small problem in the past three years. At $3k/replacement, I've probably saved $30-40k! So far I've retired 2 vehicles with 600,000+km and 3 more will be there this year.
Another thing I've learned over the years is every transmission needs external filtration! The stock internal filter is garbage and does nothing. Worse yet, some vehicles(like my Vibes) have no internal filter at all! All transmissions produce wear material and it doesn't matter how often you flush the trans, that wear material will make several thousand passes through the system before you can remove it. All that while it's sandblasting internal parts, clogging up passages and solenoids, etc. It needs to be removed immediately and continuously. For that I have installed bypass filters on all my transmissions.
Another issue is heat. Here again most stock trans coolers are garbage. If you do any kind of towing, stop and go driving, live in a hot climate etc, you must install a secondary, aftermarket trans cooler. A temperature gauge is the only real way to tell what's happening but rest assured that if your ATF turns brown/black it's getting too hot and damage is being done.
You guys can argue all day about tests and data, but seeing is believing in my books. And what I see is atleast triple the transmission life on my cars and 5 figures per year saved in repair costs. I'll take that over a stack of paper anyday!
Another thing I've learned over the years is every transmission needs external filtration! The stock internal filter is garbage and does nothing. Worse yet, some vehicles(like my Vibes) have no internal filter at all! All transmissions produce wear material and it doesn't matter how often you flush the trans, that wear material will make several thousand passes through the system before you can remove it. All that while it's sandblasting internal parts, clogging up passages and solenoids, etc. It needs to be removed immediately and continuously. For that I have installed bypass filters on all my transmissions.
Another issue is heat. Here again most stock trans coolers are garbage. If you do any kind of towing, stop and go driving, live in a hot climate etc, you must install a secondary, aftermarket trans cooler. A temperature gauge is the only real way to tell what's happening but rest assured that if your ATF turns brown/black it's getting too hot and damage is being done.
You guys can argue all day about tests and data, but seeing is believing in my books. And what I see is atleast triple the transmission life on my cars and 5 figures per year saved in repair costs. I'll take that over a stack of paper anyday!
It is hard to argue with that.
^^^ That may have made my mind up, too. I was trying to justify the high price of Amsoil but it's cheaper than a new transmission. FWIW the owner's manual specifies Dex-3.
I'm not trying to "argue with that", but were olympic's observations due to fluids or due to filtration? Would you buy a particular brand of fluid when filtration is the major factor? Alternatively, would you invest in external filtration when a new fluid is the major factor? Observations are great, but just be careful that you know what you are observing.
Some of the newer transmissions have a screw-on filter as well as the sump filter. The Dodge truck/SUV transmission (5 speed auto that comes with the 4.7) has this setup. As far as I know GM doesn't, so the best solution for me is 25K fluid and filter changes.
Its a proven combination. Better fluid + better filtration + better cooling = longer lasting transmission.
When you look at the T-IV and mineral DexIII UOAs, I do see Amsoil as a major contributor to Olympics increase in transmission life.
Fleet vehicles tend to be pushed to the limit which causes consistent trackable expected failures. Target the weaknesses from multiple angles and suddenly it all makes sense.
In a daily driven single owner vehicle, all you need to do is research the weaknesses in your transmission. Address the weaknesses and it could last forever.
OEMs were seriously lacking in fluid quality, cooling, and filtration. It only took them decades to address the 'quality of fluid' issue. Whether they've gone far enough with fluid technology is a debate in itself. How many more decades will it take before they include adequate and effective cooling and filtration?
What I observed is Olympics 3-way attack on an issue. Now the issue is eliminated or seriously reduced.
Quality ATF is an easy improvement that can made to ANY transmission. I won't even install an ATF not labelled a blend. Full synths, IMO, are a must for many weaker units.
Maintenance intervals can also be adjusted if fluid isn't the best choice(OEM fluid users). Usually 1/3-1/4 of the OEM recommended change intervals is a good starting point for long transmission life. If you have a lifetime transmission fluid, its lifetime is the 'warranty' period.
Cooling and filtration can be a hassle and will add to points of failure. I do recommend kits vs. the do-it-yourself home made filter/coolers. I also recommend that you inspect for leaks and connection integrity.
If breaking OEM hard lines, using adapters, running hoses, mounting coolers or filters.....is too difficult, another option is to install a deeper sump pan.
When you look at the T-IV and mineral DexIII UOAs, I do see Amsoil as a major contributor to Olympics increase in transmission life.
Fleet vehicles tend to be pushed to the limit which causes consistent trackable expected failures. Target the weaknesses from multiple angles and suddenly it all makes sense.
In a daily driven single owner vehicle, all you need to do is research the weaknesses in your transmission. Address the weaknesses and it could last forever.
OEMs were seriously lacking in fluid quality, cooling, and filtration. It only took them decades to address the 'quality of fluid' issue. Whether they've gone far enough with fluid technology is a debate in itself. How many more decades will it take before they include adequate and effective cooling and filtration?
What I observed is Olympics 3-way attack on an issue. Now the issue is eliminated or seriously reduced.
Quality ATF is an easy improvement that can made to ANY transmission. I won't even install an ATF not labelled a blend. Full synths, IMO, are a must for many weaker units.
Maintenance intervals can also be adjusted if fluid isn't the best choice(OEM fluid users). Usually 1/3-1/4 of the OEM recommended change intervals is a good starting point for long transmission life. If you have a lifetime transmission fluid, its lifetime is the 'warranty' period.
Cooling and filtration can be a hassle and will add to points of failure. I do recommend kits vs. the do-it-yourself home made filter/coolers. I also recommend that you inspect for leaks and connection integrity.
If breaking OEM hard lines, using adapters, running hoses, mounting coolers or filters.....is too difficult, another option is to install a deeper sump pan.
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No doubt about it. In fleet taxi service ..you WILL find the weak link in any drive train. The engines typically hold up well or at least remain viable. Very few heating/cooling cycles ..but the transmissions just wear out (even if serviced appropriately) if not fail due to some inherent design flaw. As long as that flaw is exacerbated by fluid degradation due to heating, or fluid contamination with suspended particles, then auxiliary filtration and cooling, and fluids that resist oxidation will surely lengthen the service life of the trans and allow lower frequency of service.
I firmly believe in all of these modalities for extending transmission life in a trouble free state. What I don't believe is that these actions will be a panacea for inherent design weaknesses and/or flaws.
That is, although synthetics have surely proven themselves in drivetrain longevity over conventional lubricants (not so as much in engines), they aren't magic.
I firmly believe in all of these modalities for extending transmission life in a trouble free state. What I don't believe is that these actions will be a panacea for inherent design weaknesses and/or flaws.
That is, although synthetics have surely proven themselves in drivetrain longevity over conventional lubricants (not so as much in engines), they aren't magic.
It's true, I have no way of knowing if the fluid or external filtration had the greater effect on the increased trans life since I added them both at the same time. But I know that increased cooling wasn't enough since I had installed auxillary coolers since I first started in business 10 years ago. They may have helped, but they definitely didn't cure the problem.
Here's what prompted me to take further action: I bought a 2001 Montana brand new in 2000, from 0-200,000km I took it in for a trans flush every 50,000km(the pan was never dropped which is standard procedure at most shops). At 220,000km the trans was shifting very harshly and making a noise similar to a PS pump that's low on oil. So I decided to drop the pan to see what was up. What I found was a 1/4" layer of sludge and wear material covering the entire bottom of the pan. I had to dig around in it to find the magnet...lol!
My conclusions were: I needed better fluid due to the sludge and better filtration due to the wear material. I researched the options and decided on Amsoil Universal ATF along with a BP80A bypass mount and BP90 filter element. So in those went and 15,000km later the trans was working like new again, shifting normally and the noise was gone.
The conclusions I could draw at this point were: The trans internals had been contaminated with wear material and sludge. The synthetic fluid worked to clean this material out and the bypass filter worked to remove the contaminants from the fluid. I was convinced of the benefits and ordered up enough supplies to convert the rest of my fleet.
Fast forward to last year, the same van reached 620,000km. I had changed the ATF and bypass filter once at 400,000km but here again, the pan was not dropped. I was about to replace this van and was curious as to what the inside of the trans looked like. So I pulled the pan off and what I found was........NOTHING! There was no sludge, no wear material, it was a clean as when I had installed it 400,000km ago. The magnet had a fine layer of metallic fuzz but that was it.
Conclusions: 1) synthetic ATF does not break down and form sludge, even with 4x the KM as conventional ATF. 2)external bypass filtration is highly effective. I never cut open the filter element so I can't say how much wear material was in there, but it coudn't have been much for the trans to last this long.
So as stated above, I don't know if either the Amsoil ATF or the bypass filter provided the greatest benefit. But the only conclusion I could draw from what I had seen was that BOTH were needed.
Over tha past few years I've added several used cars to my fleet. The first thing I do is replace the internal trans filter and install the new ATF and BP filter. When I drop the pan, the story is always the same. I find varying amounts of wear material and sludge stuck to the bottom of the pan. None as bad as the van described above though. So it's definitley a common problem that needs to be corrected by the end user since the OEM maintenance procedures are not sufficient.
Here's what prompted me to take further action: I bought a 2001 Montana brand new in 2000, from 0-200,000km I took it in for a trans flush every 50,000km(the pan was never dropped which is standard procedure at most shops). At 220,000km the trans was shifting very harshly and making a noise similar to a PS pump that's low on oil. So I decided to drop the pan to see what was up. What I found was a 1/4" layer of sludge and wear material covering the entire bottom of the pan. I had to dig around in it to find the magnet...lol!
My conclusions were: I needed better fluid due to the sludge and better filtration due to the wear material. I researched the options and decided on Amsoil Universal ATF along with a BP80A bypass mount and BP90 filter element. So in those went and 15,000km later the trans was working like new again, shifting normally and the noise was gone.
The conclusions I could draw at this point were: The trans internals had been contaminated with wear material and sludge. The synthetic fluid worked to clean this material out and the bypass filter worked to remove the contaminants from the fluid. I was convinced of the benefits and ordered up enough supplies to convert the rest of my fleet.
Fast forward to last year, the same van reached 620,000km. I had changed the ATF and bypass filter once at 400,000km but here again, the pan was not dropped. I was about to replace this van and was curious as to what the inside of the trans looked like. So I pulled the pan off and what I found was........NOTHING! There was no sludge, no wear material, it was a clean as when I had installed it 400,000km ago. The magnet had a fine layer of metallic fuzz but that was it.
Conclusions: 1) synthetic ATF does not break down and form sludge, even with 4x the KM as conventional ATF. 2)external bypass filtration is highly effective. I never cut open the filter element so I can't say how much wear material was in there, but it coudn't have been much for the trans to last this long.
So as stated above, I don't know if either the Amsoil ATF or the bypass filter provided the greatest benefit. But the only conclusion I could draw from what I had seen was that BOTH were needed.
Over tha past few years I've added several used cars to my fleet. The first thing I do is replace the internal trans filter and install the new ATF and BP filter. When I drop the pan, the story is always the same. I find varying amounts of wear material and sludge stuck to the bottom of the pan. None as bad as the van described above though. So it's definitley a common problem that needs to be corrected by the end user since the OEM maintenance procedures are not sufficient.
Just adding that I'm not an Amsoil salesman, merely a customer like everyone else. I wanted to reassure the original poster that it's OK to use the ATF in GM FWD cars. It's likely I could have achieved the same results with a different Group 4/5 ATF and different brand BP filter. M1 and a TP filter, for example. But it's impossible to locate M1 ATF around here in the quantities I need and Canadians really get the shaft on this stuff so it's expensive. I'm really intrigued with TP filters, but I didn't want the hassle of finding the right TP and ordering the canisters from the USA. With Amsoil, I can place orders online and it's at my door in a few days. The bypass filters are expensive as heck but I only use 3 in the life of a car so I don't even worry about it.
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