Amsoil Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors

buster · Nov 22, 2003

quote:

Prevents Rust and Corrosion

AMSOIL Synthetic 5W-30 contains special rust and corrosion inhibitors to protect iron parts, as well as copper, lead and aluminum bearing materials.

I'd like to know what aspect of the oil this is and how it helps? We have seen Mobil 1 show elevated Fe numbers and I'm wondering if they don't use enough of whatever Amsoil is using to prevent this. It does appear that M1 is showing higher then normal Fe numbers, which at first I was not convinced of.

[ November 22, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

Patman · Nov 22, 2003

This is something I'm wondering too. When we look at a VOA, what aspect of it shows if an oil has more or less corrosion protection in it? Or is it simply expressed in it's higher TBN?

Pablo · Nov 22, 2003

I doubt these additive will show up in a VOA. How much of this stuff is marketing BS? I don't know. How much will show up in a UOA? As reduced Fe? Maybe, but it's hard to do a controlled test.

Molacule had a good question about this in his brain testing series.

Bob had some cheesy nail rust test with marine oils, of course, shows Schaeffer's is the best. I truly love Bob, but some of his tests just don't cut it.

bearclaw · Nov 23, 2003

This is interesting, I asked Blackstone a question about corrosion resistance regarding a vehicle I have that gets used about once a month in the winter. I thought the highest TBN I could get would be the best, but apparently they see it diferently:

quote:

For an engine that doesn't see a lot of use, we think you would actually be off going with an oil with a lower TBN. The additive that causes the TBN to read high is usually Calcium Disulfide. This is a detergent/dispersant additive and is sulfur based. The problem with this type of additive, is the sulfur often brakes from the additive and mixes with water in the oil (from condensation) to form sulfuric acid. This causes mild corrosion to for on a lot of parts. It's not a problem if the engine sees a lot of use, though if it doesn't, we recommend using an oil with less Calcium Disulfide (read as Calcium in our report). Amsoil uses a high level of calcium, while a standard petroleum oil uses calcium at about half that level. Let me known if you have any more questions.
Sincerely,
Ryan Stark
Blackstone Labs

buster · Nov 23, 2003

Excellent post. This could very well be true. Mobil 1 has increased Calcium levels and is using much more then any other oil right now. This is why we could be seeing they higher Fe numbers.

Ken2 · Nov 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by buster:
Excellent post. This could very well be true. Mobil 1 has increased Calcium levels and is using much more then any other oil right now. This is why we could be seeing they higher Fe numbers.

The Blackstone comment about calcium only relates to engines that are not driven often.

Calcium based detergents have a soft, oil soluble ash. Magnesium based detergents have a hard, abrasive, non-soluble ash.

Ken

mdv · Nov 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by bearclaw:
This is interesting, I asked Blackstone a question about corrosion resistance regarding a vehicle I have that gets used about once a month in the winter. I thought the highest TBN I could get would be the best, but apparently they see it diferently:

quote:

For an engine that doesn't see a lot of use, we think you would actually be off going with an oil with a lower TBN. The additive that causes the TBN to read high is usually Calcium Disulfide. This is a detergent/dispersant additive and is sulfur based. The problem with this type of additive, is the sulfur often brakes from the additive and mixes with water in the oil (from condensation) to form sulfuric acid. This causes mild corrosion to for on a lot of parts. It's not a problem if the engine sees a lot of use, though if it doesn't, we recommend using an oil with less Calcium Disulfide (read as Calcium in our report). Amsoil uses a high level of calcium, while a standard petroleum oil uses calcium at about half that level. Let me known if you have any more questions.
Sincerely,
Ryan Stark
Blackstone Labs

Click to expand...

Interesting comment. I've never thought about it like that before. It does leave me wondering about a few things though. For instance, Amsoil's 15W-40 Diesel and Marine oil is spefically designed for use in engines that sit for very long periods at a time. Yet, as a diesel oil, it has a high calcium level. Does anyone have any input as to how this oil works. I'm looking at storing a car for a few months that's been running this oil. I picked it specifically for extended drains and so the car would be protected when it sat. Now I'm beginning to second guess things.

JohnBrowning · Nov 23, 2003

I once read a Motor Trend or Car and Driver magazine and they had some famous Tribologist. He does custom blending for people and companys all the time. I remember him saying that their was a chemical that could be added to the oil to prevent rust. He said the vapors from this chemical alone would be enough to rust proof the engine. This was a few years back. Maybe Molakule can chime in on this topic!!

Drstressor · Nov 23, 2003

Calcium disulfide as an oil additive? The Blackstone tech is very confused. Detergents are typically phenolates, phosphonates and sulfonates. These compounds are all weak acids that are rendered neutral by the addition of calcium or magnesium hydroxides and carbonates. Excess base is used in high TBN lubricants to provide extra buffering capacity in order to neutralize additional acids formed from fuel combustion products. Sulfuric acid is a combustion product that can form in the presence of water. When sulfuric acid is neutralized by the extra calcium in a high TBN oil, calcium disulfide can form. As the TBN of the oil becomes depleted, sulfuric acid can re-form if moisture is present. During storage, this will happen slower with a high TBN oil than with a low TBN oil.

In general, high TBN oils with excess calcium and/or magnesium reduce acid formation during storage. Vapor phase corrosion inhibitors are are part of the additive package of certain marine oils. However, I don't understand their chemistry.

TooSlick · Nov 23, 2003

I agree with the good doctor ...

HD diesel engine oils are preferred for marine engines and farm equipment that is used on a seasonal basis.

There's no problem with the level of Calcium that Mobil 1 is using. The previous Amsoil add pack used > 3000 ppm of Calcium and iron levels were fine.

Ca is considered more of a high temp detergent, while Mg also serves as a medium to low temp dispersant to reduce sludge deposits from short trip driving ....

Tooslick

Drstressor · Nov 24, 2003

"Detergents are typically phenolates, phosphonates and sulfonates."

I hate when you guys refer to Ca and Mg as detergents. They are not detergents, just the basic metals used to neutralize the compounds that become the actual detergents. I have never seen an oil manufacturer or blender actually describe the detergent components of their product. So Ca being associated with one type of detergent and Mg with another is just speculation. Right Ted?

The amount of Ca or Mg in an oil doesn't change as the TBN or detergent level becomes depleted unless the oil is to the point of forming insoluble sludge. I don't know why this information is even included in a UOA except that the data are part of the spec run that measures wear metals.

TooSlick · Nov 24, 2003

DR,

You can't expect everyone to have a Phd in organic chemistry...

I'm merely following the kiss principle:

KISS = keep it simple, stupid

I'd agree that levels of Ca and Mg don't change ...I have noticed however, that levels of MoDTC and Borate friction modifiers do decrease. Perhaps you can tell me why that is? I honestly have no idea ....

thanks,

TS

buster · Nov 24, 2003

quote:

KISS = keep it simple, stupid

Nice, I like that and thats a good rule to follow at least for people like myself. I have to be honest between this website, and my wife who is a biology/chemistry pre-med student, I'm thinking of going back to school for something in the sciences. It seems to be my interest. Must strenghten my math skills first.

Drstressor · Nov 24, 2003

Sorry to be so grumpy. Seasonal affective disorder, I guess.

I don't know why the levels of the metal components of friction modifiers would decline over time either. The MoDTC can oxidize and borate esters can shear. But the moly and boron should not go away. Some will plate out on metals surfaces, but an equilibrium should be attained with continued use of the same oil. Maybe some modifier gets removed by the filter along with larger wear metal particles. The surface area of wear metal particles is pretty high even at the ppm level.

MolaKule · Nov 24, 2003

quote:

AMSOIL Synthetic 5W-30 contains special rust and corrosion inhibitors to protect iron parts, as well as copper, lead and aluminum bearing materials.

A comprehensive list of the most coomon additives is are found here:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032

What Amsoil is saying is that they may have an extra measure of Rust Inhibitors and Metal Deactivators as part of the additive package for longer-term protection.

In addition to Calcium and Magnesium sulfonates, calcium and magnesium succinimides are often used for the TBN and detergent/dispersant package.

With today's high base antioxidant packages, very little of the magnesium XXXXX is needed.

The new Calcium Carbonates are multifunctional in that they function as part of the TBN establisher, perform as part of the DD agent, and provide secondary AW functions.

Amsoil Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors

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