Amsoil - good amount of ester

[buster]

Indeed.

Let me make it clear since my initial post was not accurate:

We can't tell the % of ester via the FTIR so this post is not as interesting as I once had thought.

 

[Strjock81]

David at HPL showed me some FTIR graphs from their in-house lab testing. They used their own product, so they have a baseline with a known base stock and additive package. They can then compare it directly with other competing products to look for signature spikes. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by buster
Thanks to the Spanish YouTube channel, we can actually get a better idea of what is in some of these blends. Redline uses the most POE, followed by Amsoil. (see VOA section where Euro Redline 5w30 was posted).

Tom NJ is certainly right about the caveats of using FTIR to estimate the POE content.

These were my previous estimates of the polyol ester (POE) content (with the caveats mentioned by Tom NJ):

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...70993/re-redline-goes-api-sn#Post5070993

POE is polyol ester and AN is alkylated naphthalene, both API Group V base stocks. POE shows as an oxidation number, whereas AN shows as a unique sawtooth pattern in FTIR.

• Red Line High-Performance 5W-30: 82 - 87% PAO and 13 - 18% POE
• Motul Ester Core: 5 - 7% POE
• Mobil 1 FS 0W-40: 5 - 7% POE and 0% AN
• Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30: 5 - 7% POE and 0% AN
• Mobil 1 ESP x2 0W-20: 5 - 7% POE and 0% AN
• Mobil 1 other FS and ESP varieties: likely 5 - 7% POE and 0% AN
• non-Euro (non-FS and non-ESP) varieties of Mobil 1: 0% POE but always some unknown nonzero percentage of AN, possibly higher in some high-mileage varieties
• Amsoil Signature Series 0W-40: 8 - 12% POE
• TGMO 0W-20 SN (circa-2013 formulation): 8 - 12% POE showing in my Wear Check VOA FTIR but not sure if real or an artifact

 

[buster]

Thanks Gokhan.

Driven has a decent amount of POE too. FWIW.

 

[Arrechera]

There are several indicators to determine the use of group V base oil, both ester and alkylated naphthalenes.

On the one hand there is the oxidation parameter of the new oil, which indicates the presence of acids, but in this case it is a fatty acid used for the formulation of the ester (fatty acid + alcohol) and not harmful acids from sulfur to from contact with other compounds that are reflected in used oil analysis.

As for the Ftir spectroscopy, the use of ester raises the baskets that are formed mainly around 1750 and 1180, even, in very high concentrations, tb raises the ridge that forms at 722.

Alkylated naphthalenes are easier to detect, as they create mini saw-shaped ridges around 750-900 approximately.

ANs are mainly used in some Mobil1, Motul 300v models and some Ravenol models, among others.




PD.
I apologize for my English, I write from Spain using the google translator.

 

[Arrechera]

On the Redline, I am quite convinced that in its high performance range, as well as in its WT range, it uses high concentrations of ester, on the one hand, the oxidation parameter in new oil usually gives values ​​between 90 and 120, when the Mobil1 ESP 5w30 gives around 30 and Amsoil around 50-60.

Both Redline and Amsoil use the same type of ester, supplied by croda, as well as the same PAO, supplied by chevron and the infineum additive package, so I consider they are the most suitable for comparing them face to face.

Here I attach ftir from redline high performance and ftir from amsoil signature series.

PD.

I apologize for my English, I write from Spain using the google translator.

 

[emod]

Oil-club.ru has information about oils called Extreme. These are special kind of oils - real full synthetic oils.
One of the people involved in the production of these oils has explicitly stated the content of PAO and Esters in their composition.
I will give an example with 5w-30 oils:

Extreme AMG VR2 5W-30 GTJ -> PAO 72%; ESTER 10 %;

Extreme AMG VR2 5W-30 GTI -> PAO 64%; ESTER 15 %;

Here you can find more information and data (including FTIRs; VOA) - EXTREME oils oil-club.ru

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted by Arrechera
Both Redline and Amsoil use the same type of ester, supplied by croda, as well as the same PAO, supplied by chevron and the infineum additive package, so I consider they are the most suitable for comparing them face to face.


Welcome to BITOG

I am just curious how you know the suppliers to Red Line and Amsoil. Do you have some inside information or is this speculation?

Also, do you know which ester these companies are using? Priolube 3970 (MW = 470, NPI = 58) is quite popular, but Priolube 1973 (MW = 636, NPI = 130) is probably a better choice, and they will quantify differently in FTIR. The molecular weight of C=O carbonyl groups as a percentage of the ester molecular weight for the Priolube 3970 is twice that of Priolube 1973.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by Mainia
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Jeepers guys! You can buy bottles of ester lubricant all day long at Napa

POE. ISO 68 or 100, 80% pure, 20% inhibitors

Just add a half bottle, and away you go!


With what, almost zero of an added add pack? I would want something engineered by an R&D oil chemist.

And added add pack?

Sorry, just sounds funny.

Well your oil has an additive package, a taste of POE should do well without DP/AP adds
as a low percentage base oil ADDITIVE.

You silly guys think putting put colloidal MoS2 in your oil is "good"

So I would think adding a 1/2 liter of POE to a 4.5 l sump should be a "cakewalk".

Don't You?

It's oil. A good oil does 99.9% of the important work.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by Tom NJ
Originally Posted by Arrechera
Both Redline and Amsoil use the same type of ester, supplied by croda, as well as the same PAO, supplied by chevron and the infineum additive package, so I consider they are the most suitable for comparing them face to face.


Welcome to BITOG

I am just curious how you know the suppliers to Red Line and Amsoil. Do you have some inside information or is this speculation?

Also, do you know which ester these companies are using? Priolube 3970 (MW = 470, NPI = 58) is quite popular, but Priolube 1973 (MW = 636, NPI = 130) is probably a better choice, and they will quantify differently in FTIR. The molecular weight of C=O carbonyl groups as a percentage of the ester molecular weight for the Priolube 3970 is twice that of Priolube 1973.


I'm not sure how anyone could know that either.