Amsoil, boutique oils vs GTL/modern oil technology

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: SwedishRider
But that doesn't make the case that Amsoil can provide equal to or better value in its products and pricing. True I can buy Amsoil from my easy-chair... but I can also shop at Walmart.com (or Amazon, which I tend not to shop at).

I'm still wondering if the case for Amsoil/Boutique players can be made over a Walmart/Pennzoil Ultra/Fram Ultra combo. I'm starting to wonder if the writing may be on the wall..

There are two issues here. Aside from those who dislike Walmart, or those places where Walmarts aren't cheap (Canada), there are also places that don't have Walmarts. Any of those reasons can keep a person out of Walmart and buying elsewhere. I can get RP from my supplier at a better price than I can get synthetics in the same package size from Walmart or Canadian Tire. Canadian Tire itself prices RP between M1 and M1 EP, which is fair. A local retailer sells Amsoil at prices that are not out of line with other synthetics on the market. If you go "more" into the boutique range, Red Line and Motul, for instance, are substantially more, but those are often purchased with specific goals in mind. I'm not discussing the validity of those goals and the reasoning, but suffice it to say that the average person buying Motul or Red Line up here isn't running it in his Caravan.

Note that up here, PU is expensive, coming in at more than the last jug of Motul I saw. Yes, our pricing is weird.

Another important issue isn't just dislike of Walmart or Canadian Tire or the fear of paying retail prices at a regular parts store. Some people don't like Mobil, BP, SOPUS, or Ashland, or may dislike all of them.

There still is room for boutiques, and probably always will be. As long as there are people who like to change their own oil, like pretty labels, dislike Walmart, or whatever other insignificant reason I can come up with, there will be people buying boutiques.

I've used RP in the past and will again. Heck, I'm using their gear lube, and given its availability and price, it really is difficult to beat.

By the way, up here, I bet an Amsoil dealer could spank Amazon Canada on pricing. I know my RP dealer can.


As much as I dislike how Walmart treats their employees, I also dislike the Amsoil MLM business model. Most MLM business models are close to a pyramid scheme. Few people could start an Amsoil dealership tomorrow and make much money at it.

But still I will buy my motor oil at Walmart and ATF and gear oil at Amsoil.

 

[route66mike]

Originally Posted By: yvon_la
There are always advance in oil techno .small place are often the early bird to implement these .since shell .bp(aka castrol)or mobil have board of director to answer to .small place like valvoline often adopt new techno some for good call some changed back because it isnt as great as expected .the big guns arent gona be the first to create a graphene base stock or whatever way oil industry will implement it.the small top guns like motul .red line and or amzoil are probably the one initially mass marketting it


If a small company invents/patents some amazing lube tech, and can come out with a motor oil that demonstrably reduces wear on all the standard SN and ACEA tests, then they could market it as a leap forward, present the proof it works to cut wear down far below just test-passing minimums. Most companies just barely pass test specs and call it a day.

 

[SilverC6]

I would think Amsoil would have difficulty expanding market share and competing with major motor oil manufacturers on a level playing field.

They would, instead, be better served continuing to blend their lubricants using quality base stocks from the majors and still delivering their product through their odd marketing structure.

If they ever really challenged EOM or SOPUS for market share, they would risk losing their access to premium base stocks from these manufacturers.

 

[yvon_la]

The trouble with their barely pass is you need a voa and a uoa just to have a measuring stick.if i hadnt seen the awsome result from some brand of oil here ,i would probably have checked the cheapest and be smack in the middle of the pack if i am lucky .madketeer are annoying because they are there to blurr the line or make it as wide as possible.exemple?pennzoil pureplus !ITS A GROUP 4 I TELL YOU !API NOT ON OUR WATCH !etc etc.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Donald
As much as I dislike how Walmart treats their employees, I also dislike the Amsoil MLM business model. Most MLM business models are close to a pyramid scheme. Few people could start an Amsoil dealership tomorrow and make much money at it.

I understand that, too. Here, at least, we BITOGers are lucky enough to have Pablo around. And locally, Peavey Mart is allowed to sell the stuff since they're a small enough chain, and the high TBN/long drain stuff can be popular among some of the farmer types.

As I've said before, I find it pretty hard to resist when Walmart has a special for $12 (or whatever) for a five quart jug of PYB or VWB or whatever. But, up here, there is no "everyday low price" advantage. Walmart is the second worst place to buy oil at regular prices, after Canadian Tire. Even Petro-Canada gas stations are cheaper, and that's ridiculous.

Walmart is getting in the habit of not advertising their oil specials, and I'm sure as heck not going in there each week to see what might be on sale out of curiosity. To make matters worse, they're taking on the old Canadian Tire policy of ordering way too little when there is a special, and nothing is left in a couple hours. Going to one Walmart is bad enough; I'm not going to each one in the city to save a few dollars. There are all kinds of distributors here that will gladly sell me something at a real everyday low price.

The SOPUS and Imperial Oil distributors spank Walmart on regular prices of oil - synthetic and conventional. Superstore, a grocery store, spanked Walmart on oil prices for years and years, too. Unfortunately, not enough people thought about going to the grocery store for their oil, so they cut back their stock to next to nothing, from at one time having a display as big as Walmart's.

 

[Flareside302]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
European formula is just one of em...

www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil...-oil/?zo=515729

Manufacturer Approvals:
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40

Walmart sells Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 that meets these specs. And of course, the Synpower at Walmart is cheaper than the equivalent Amsoil.


that's cool...

I don't care.. price isn't everything. this is the issue with the way the current economic market is going..

I said in my response that the oil I posted wasn't based on his price request...

 

[dave123]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
European formula is just one of em...

www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil...-oil/?zo=515729

Manufacturer Approvals:
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40

Walmart sells Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 that meets these specs. And of course, the Synpower at Walmart is cheaper than the equivalent Amsoil.


that's cool...

I don't care.. price isn't everything. this is the issue with the way the current economic market is going..

I said in my response that the oil I posted wasn't based on his price request...


Then why post it it did not meet my criteria.

 

[Flareside302]

Originally Posted By: dave123
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
European formula is just one of em...

www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil...-oil/?zo=515729

Manufacturer Approvals:
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40

Walmart sells Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 that meets these specs. And of course, the Synpower at Walmart is cheaper than the equivalent Amsoil.


that's cool...

I don't care.. price isn't everything. this is the issue with the way the current economic market is going..

I said in my response that the oil I posted wasn't based on his price request...


Then why post it it did not meet my criteria.


because cost isn't [censored] everything dude. not everyone is a penny pincher.

and just because AMSOIL doesn't go out and seek Dexos certs, or other certs, dodoesnt mean anything.. they just aren't gonna pay out extra for [censored] they meet and exceed and don't feel there will be a ROI for.

I don't understand why people have such a hard on to down AMSOIL for all they do for the automotive industry and especially racing..

 

[wemay]

The issue isnt that they're just 'cheaper', it's that they also meet the stringent specs. Everyone knows Amsoil is a great product but when a deeper pocket company can come along and equal the specs and sell their product for much less cost, you can't blame folks for spending their money in that direction. The same way Amsoil doesnt pay to meet some specs because they don't see the 'ROI' can be applied down stream to the end user as well.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
European formula is just one of em...

www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil...-oil/?zo=515729

Manufacturer Approvals:
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40

Walmart sells Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 that meets these specs. And of course, the Synpower at Walmart is cheaper than the equivalent Amsoil.


that's cool...

I don't care.. price isn't everything. this is the issue with the way the current economic market is going..

I said in my response that the oil I posted wasn't based on his price request...

But you responded directly to this comment:
Quote:
Name me one motor oil Amsoil offers with oem approvals I can not get at Walmart cheaper I only want one not a list just one.

You gave an example that doesn't qualify. So why did you even bother responding and quoting it?

 

[DrAdmin]

this is a boutique oil:
http://xenumshop.com/index.php?id_product=273&controller=product&id_lang=1
60$/L
redline amsoil is NOT "boutique" the price is as average consumer product; unless assumption all over 10$/L is "boutique"

sorry for sarcasm ...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302

because cost isn't [censored] everything dude. not everyone is a penny pincher.

and just because AMSOIL doesn't go out and seek Dexos certs, or other certs, dodoesnt mean anything.. they just aren't gonna pay out extra for [censored] they meet and exceed and don't feel there will be a ROI for.


They CLAIM that they meet or exceed, but how do they KNOW that they meet or exceed without testing...e.g. they claim that their ACD is for use in A3/B4 applications, when it doesn't meet the HTHS minimum for those specifications.

When queried, the HTHS was described simply as an "arbtirary number", and they know their oil will perform.

It probably will perform, and yes 3.5 is an arbitrary number, as are any of the specs that they claim to meet or exceed...all without testing against those specifications.

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
and just because AMSOIL doesn't go out and seek Dexos certs, or other certs, dodoesnt mean anything.. they just aren't gonna pay out extra for [censored] they meet and exceed and don't feel there will be a ROI for.
How do we know they pass certs if they don't actually do the tests?

Originally Posted By: Shannow
They CLAIM that they meet or exceed, but how do they KNOW that they meet or exceed without testing...e.g. they claim that their ACD is for use in A3/B4 applications, when it doesn't meet the HTHS minimum for those specifications.
Actually they claim its "recommended for A3/B3". Your point about HTHS is correct still, since ACD has HTHS=3.4, which is just short of the 3.5 minimum, so it forces (legally) to say "AMSOIL ACD is recommended for diesel engines, gasoline engines and other applications that require any of the following worldwide specifications:"

Originally Posted By: Shannow
.any of the specs that they claim to meet or exceed...all without testing against those specifications.
True there. I can't tell from reading their list of specs they think they meet, which ones have been actually run or not. Its silly.

I can see how Amsoil might say "There's too many dad-gum specs, we can't test them all." Still, they should at least make it clear which specs are actually run, and which specs are "it'll probably work, maybe". To me Amsoil needs more credibility. They fool many.

 

[SilverC6]

It's pretty simple to me.

You either test and meet or exceed a certification/standard or you don't mention it.

If it's third party testing, submit your product and pay your fees for the certification.

You don't let the marketing department write your compliance info based on product expectations.

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Marketing can convince consumers their oil is better. For example, look at http://www.pistonking.com/ . They may not have the army of scientists that SOPUS, XOM, Chevron, & BP have for proprietary stuff, yet they can outsource all that.


There are several oil customers:

1) Fleet Managers: Cheapest oil that barely meets specs.

2) Bargain Hunters: same as 1)

3) Impressionable People: Whatever oil is "coolest", ads are funny/flashy/cool like the pistonking.com hilarious ads (they really are funny).

4. Enthusiasts: They will latch on to some real or perceived technical advantage and buy that oil and are more likely to spend a little more to do it. Thats me. People here are more likely to buy Amsoil or other non-Walmart oils.

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
It's pretty simple to me.

You either test and meet or exceed a certification/standard or you don't mention it.

If it's third party testing, submit your product and pay your fees for the certification.

You don't let the marketing department write your compliance info based on product expectations.

Thats what should happen. I'll bet Amsoil didn't just let the marketing department write the "recommended for" list though. Their tech people thought about it and likely made very good educated guesses based on what types of tests they know they can pass.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
Originally Posted By: Flareside302
and just because AMSOIL doesn't go out and seek Dexos certs, or other certs, dodoesnt mean anything.. they just aren't gonna pay out extra for [censored] they meet and exceed and don't feel there will be a ROI for.
How do we know they pass certs if they don't actually do the tests?

Some of Amsoil's oils are now on the official Euro mfg certifications lists, which means they have been tested.

 

[Flareside302]

all manufacturers, provide oil specs to the oil companies. the oil company builds their blend.. test it against spec.. they pass they say meet or exceed.. period end of story..

they have the requirements to pass given to them... its not like companies go in blind for Dexos or API.. specifications and requirements are given to them so they can self test.

now when they get certified they let the lab test and pay certification fees.. similar way as above just go the extra step and extra cost..

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: Flareside302
all manufacturers, provide oil specs to the oil companies. the oil company builds their blend.. test it against spec.. they pass they say meet or exceed.. period end of story..

they have the requirements to pass given to them... its not like companies go in blind for Dexos or API.. specifications and requirements are given to them so they can self test.

now when they get certified they let the lab test and pay certification fees.. similar way as above just go the extra step and extra cost..


The problem explained in previous posts has to do with saying "recommended for these specs" which says they didn't actually run the tests or get the approvals and can't legally say they meet/exceed those specific tests. Yes Amsoil runs some tests/approvals. People see 'recommended' and might think it passed that spec, when in fact it was never run.

 

[wag123]

Amsoil, like all of the other "boutique" motor oil brands, is a blender/formulator. They do not refine/produce their own base stocks, they purchase them from other MUCH larger companies (like XOM, Shell, Lubrizol, etc) that do. There isn't anyone holding back the "boutique" brands from purchasing GTL base stocks and using them, except that maybe the large refiners/producers that are making them are not currently (as yet) offering to sell them to companies like Amsoil.